Debate: Should God be de-radicalised? – Religion and state in the modern world
Posted: September 29, 2009 Filed under: Debates, Secularism, Videos 1 Comment »MDI proudly presents the debate “Should God be de-radicalised? – Religion and state in the modern world”
Speakers are: Bob Churchill, member of the National Secular Society and Abdullah al Andalusi.
Debate was held on 29 September 2009, in Central London, at the Abrar Hall.
In the modern world, religion is seen as a relic of the past, as being unable to deal with contemporary problems, and at worst, being the cause of today’s afflictions and problems.
But is this accurate? Is religion the cause of modern day wars, social breakdown and global warming? Isn’t it rather the mass industry of materialistically-focused societies producing, and polluting, in mass quantities without regard to the ethical limits we find common in religion? Is public morality in decay due to the secularisation of society? Are wars about Oil and nationalism, rather than religion?but Lastly, can religion provide answers which are fundamentally lacking in Secularism?
Both sides of the debate, both ideological Secular Atheist and ideological Theist, debate the role religion should play in the 21st century in this intellectually stimulating discussion- Should God be de-radicalised?
Speakers:
Bob Churchill
Bob studied Philosophy at the University of Warwick and Queens University, Canada. He worked in communications and marketing, then systems development, before joining the British Humanist Association in January 2008 as the Membership and Web Manager. He now liaises with local humanist groups, manages membership communications, and has been responsible for the BHAs online presence during the Atheist Bus Campaign. He has represented the BHA on radio and television and has discussed philosophy, religion, values and Humanism in public debates and interfaith forums.
Abdullah al Andalusi
Abdullah is a former Christian who embraced Islam at a young age, and has studied Islam in depth since he was 18. He also has an academic background in Computer Science. Abdullah has had a long experience in working for Islamic revival and the establishment of Islamic shariah in the Muslim world.
His activities involve speaking at community centres, universities, colleges and appearances on various TV programmes. He is experienced in debates with Atheists, Secularists and Christians, and has be involved in public and radio debates with Atheists and Christians.
Part 1 – Opening Statements
Part 2 – Questions and Answers
Peace be upon you In Jesus Christ
Dr.Mustafa;
I would again sum up that you may understand your own contradiction :
1. Dr.Mustafa previously commented “God is not having any end but man is having an end so how can you have no end and an end at the same time….Man will die and then will be raised for reward or punishment by god so man is not eternal because he will die first before the eternal life but god cannot die””
RJ: I have just reminded him that even Islam admit man will live without no end, but you still childishly insist that Islam never said that and relating it with all men will die. Of course all men will die, but it’s just their physic & not spiritual, again I want to bring you this problem:
DO U BELIEVE MAN WILL TOTALLY BEING ANNIHILATE (SPIRITUALLY &PHYSICALLY) WHEN DIED, IF SO HOW CAN HE STILL BE “ALIVE” & COMMUNICATING IN GRAVE WITH ANGEL OF DEATH, THEN?
And please don’t hide your incapability to debate by throwing ad hominem mockery such as :dumb; mindless idiot, etc., have your mother ever teach you any manner? please behave properly doctor! coz your mockery won’t in anyway save you from being exposed
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2. Dr.mustafa said: “Iam not a all insisting on heretical idea .Iam very clear that believing Jesus as 100% god and 100% man the same time is contradictory and i have given enough proofs to show this is indeed contradictory.”
RJ: My condolence for u doctor, have u ever read my explanation in clear mind& non prejudice heart? I’ve already stated something incomprehensible doesn’t necessarily making it contradictory
For instance in TILL NOW YOU KEEP ON REFUSING TO CONDEMNED AS SHIRK THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIM (ASHARI&MATURIDI) THAT BELIEVE SPEECH OF QURAN AS BOTH UNCREATED &CREATED, why are you so double standard doctor ?Pathetically your own doctrine of quran in fact can be considered as “minority view”
Another example: How God as Timeless entity co-mingled with time. Surely God is beyond &above time so He shouldn’t have a Past, coz if he had then He can be considered “bound/restricted” by his creation (time). But when God interact with his creation, as He speaks or acts it seems He sort of bounded by time cause logically if God speak then obviously it would create a state of God not speaking and state where God is speaking. State of God not speaking can be looked as PAST, but we all know that God don’t have a past coz He is Timeless entity. To really determine how God act in time while keeping his Timeless Nature is incomprehensible to be determined by human mind, but again it’s not necessarily to define this incomprehensibility as contradictory.
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3. Dr.Mustafa : “Again,God limiting his ability (like not showing his mercy to some) will not make him devoid of having that ability, still God will be having it ,but man on the other hand will have limit on his capabilities no matter how much he has it .So how can one be having limitless ability and having limited ability at the same time so 100% god and 100% man together is contradiction”
RJ :Can you take a minute to ponder on your own answers? I’ve already said Incarnation was not Mutual Absorption between God&Man , but you just blindly accusing us as if God annihilate His ability when becoming man. Apparently also u still blindly neglected the Temple Principal (John 2:21)
In OT Israelite regard theTemple as point of worship (Qibla)
In NT we christian regard Jesus Christ as Perfect Living Temple & point of worship
In OT God dwell in Temple without God becoming The temple vice versa
In NT God dwell perfectly &Eternally in Christ Humanity without His Humanity becoming God vice versa
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4.Dr.Mustafa said : “.I only said god himself is not dwelling in the cloud and even both Jewish and christian commentators accept this…..Before commenting read first what iam saying understand it then comment .You don’t even seem to understand this simple thing but is repeating your nonsense”
RJ: Unfortunately for you I’m also taking reference from your references (Mathew Henry &John Gill)
-Mathew Henry said ” In all believers God the Father dwells, as in his holy temple, by his Spirit and special grace. (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=4&com=mhc)
this is an affirmative statement which notify us God dwell in Temple as in 1 Kings 8:10-12 BY HIS SPIRIT
From reading IN CONTEXT definitely Mathew Henry was speaking of Holy Spirit when he talked about Divine Glory that dwell within the Temple
-John Gill said,”in allusion to Solomon’s temple; which as it was a type of the natural, so of the mystical body of Christ. There is an agreement between that and the church of Christ, in its maker, matter, situation, magnificence, and holiness; and the church is said to be the temple of God, because it is of his building, and in which he dwells: what the apostle here says of the saints at Corinth, the Jewish doctors say of the Israelites (n), , “the temple of the Lord are ye”; and which being usually said of them in the apostle’s time, he may refer unto; and much better apply to the persons he does, of which the indwelling of the Spirit was the evidence:
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you: in particular members, as a spirit of regeneration, sanctification, faith, and adoption, and as the earnest and pledge of their future glory; in their ministers to fit and qualify them for their work, and carry them through it; and in the whole church, to bless the word and ordinances, for their growth, comfort, and establishment. This furnishes out a considerable proof of the deity and distinct personality of the Spirit, since this is mentioned as an evidence of the saints being the temple of God, which would not be one, if the Spirit was not God, who dwells therein; and since a temple is sacred to deity, and therefore if he dwells here as in a temple, he must dwell here as God; and since he is mentioned as distinct from God, whose Spirit he is, and dwelling, a personal action is ascribed to him, he must be a distinct divine person. “(http://gill.biblecommenter.com/1_corinthians/3.htm)
Please I humbly plea to sincere honesty in reading Mathew Henry&John Gill in WHOLE CONTEXT and not as you partially quoted before..thank u
not only that but your false claim that u base your view on biblical orthodoxy has been easily debunked since I’ve already present you the evidence of Shekinah in the cloud being regarded as Holy Spirit by Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm &(http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html)
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5 .In continuation from problem no.2, ln all do respect please be gentleman at least once, “doctor” , cause you yourself said ,”“These commentaries does not say God himself dwelt in the cloud IT IS JUST HIS PRESENCE”
So AGAIN I ASK YOU; HOW CAN THE PRESENCE OF AN ENTITY BE NOTICEABLE IN SOMETHING SUCH AS CLOUD BUT IN THE SAME TIME THIS ENTITY IS NOT PRESENT IN THAT CLOUD?”
Please don’t hide in dishonest way by twisting Matthew Henry&John Gill commentary, since I’ve already given you what their true opinion is about Holy Spirit God who truly dwell in the temple
You yourself after repeated intensive “interrogation” finally admit that Christian does regard the divine glory as holy spirit as quoted “The glory which is talked about here, i never said that this glory is holy spirit or he is not. Jews say no ,Christians say yes”
Please if u may kindly explain WHY YOU SAY CHRISTIANS SAY YES? what is the meaning of your sentence,sir?
And may I know as far as your observation , does ever majority of Christians not admit on Holy Spirit as God ?..please answer if u kindly would
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For An-Noor (allah as the light)
Thank you for your long reply ,but i see u kind of mix up Ibn Kathir interpretation by adding sentence such as” 186,000 miles/sc”
BTW from Ibn Kathir interpretation with no addition version I receive not one but couple of alternatives
a) It can interpreted that An-Noor can be interpreted literally as “LIGHT”
“(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) He is controlling their affairs and their stars and sun and moon.” As-Suddi said concerning the Ayah:(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) by His Light the heavens and earth are illuminated. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: “When the Messenger of Allah got up to pray at night, he would say: (O Allah, to You be praise, You are the Sustainer of heaven and earth and whoever is in them. To You be praise, You are the Light of the heavens and the earth and whoever is in them. ) It was narrated that Ibn Mas`ud said, “There is no night or day with your Lord; the Light of the Throne comes from the Light of His Face.”
b) It can be also be interpreted figuratively as knowledge
“(The parable of His Light) There are two views concerning the meaning of the pronoun (His). The first is that it refers to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, meaning that the parable of His guidance in the heart of the believer is
(Source : http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2423&Itemid=79)
Referring to explanation above, please tell me concerning Light of allah that Shining from His face , is it CREATED &ALIVE OR NOT?
Cause if This Glorious Light that shine is created then allah was Lord of Darkness in beginning, but If This Gloriuos in uncreated yet it tells us that Allah essence consist also with Non-Living substance.
Again if this Shinning Light is not literal then would it make allah also Lord of Darkness ?
P.s btw surely ought to know the word shine right? please find dictionary if you have any difficulties in finding the meaning of this word
Please if u kindly explain…
Peace In The Name of Isa al-Masih
R.J