MDI Debate: Jihad on Trial: Is Jihad Justifiable?
Posted: October 26, 2009 Filed under: Christianity, Debates, Islam, MDI, Violent extremism 13 Comments »MDI proudly presents a MDI hosted debate on the topic “Jihad on Trial: Is Jihad Justifiable?”
Public Debate: Is Jihad Justifiable? Sami Zaatari vs Alan Craig
by Muslim Debate Initiative (www.thedebateinitiative.com)
In the current political climate, with the war going on in Afghanistan, political instability in the middle East, and multiple insurgencies against occupation and oppression on-going throughout the Muslim world, what is the correct response to this for Muslims who affirm belief in the Quran?
Does Islam command a blindly violent approach, or does it command passivity? Are there only two options? Is the Quranic concept of Jihad the reason for the suffering and predicament of the Muslim world, as some western critics have claimed, or is it Western materialist foreign policy? Is there another explanation altogether?
Muslim Debate Intiative, proudly presents, a debate between International Muslim speaker, Sami Zaatari, and London Councillor & the Head of the Christian Alliance Party, Alan Craig – on the topic ‘Jihad on Trial – Is Jihad justifiable?’.
Date: 26th October 2009
Time: 6:15pm
Venue: Abrar House, 45 Crawford Place, London
Part 1: Opening Statement
Part 2: Questions and Answers
“Your understanding of Quantum Mechanics and electromagnetism is idiotic, like your theology. A quantum particle being a particle and a wave is not something which is represented at the macroscopic or relativistic scale”
RJ: I hope you just unintentionally miswrote your reply my friend, because there’s no way “A PARTICLE is PARTICLE & WAVE” , the right Principle is in Quantum Physics “MATTER is Particle & Wave ”
Btw Do you really believe such metaphysical phenomenon can be undoubtedly acknowledge in macroscopic scale?.. please be mature in your thinking & not just throwing Ad Hominem attack is your best at , have your “religion” teach you any manner, my dear friend ?
Freelover wrote : it does not explain why Quantum effects do not occur at a large scale level.
RJ : Do you expect such metaphysical phenomenon as Incarnation could occur in large scale level? After muslim like Dr.Mustafa being TUTORED by me haven’t you realized yet that Incarnation can only be uniquely apply to Jesus Christ ? You just need to think straight my friend, that’s all , bro.. 8)
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Freelover : “In any case, are you comparing Jesus to a Photon or electron? Are you saying he is a ‘quantum particle’? And are you then saying that there is nothing special about Christ, he is just like all the other countless Quantum objects in the universe then? ”
RJ: Please define your terminology on “comparing” if you kindly would my dear friend?
If your terminology of “comparing” is like Allah hears so does a monkey hears comparison, will it be that Allah swt as same as a human being then?
continues
Our brother regular John is man who has a habit of self praising and is saying he is TUTORING Muslims like me .
What has he tutored Muslims apart from his ILLOGICAL ASSERTIONS ,ABSURDITIES ,IMPROBABILITIES AND NONSENSE BELIEF OF INCARNATION WHICH CONTRADICTS ITS OWN SELF LOGIC AND SCIENCE
Still he thinks he tutored Muslims
He has not refuted a single of my point and is continuously self refuting his own points.He has not met my challenge but is still boasting of his tutoring and of his illogical faith
We Muslims thank him for the tutorial lessons he has given us about his faith and also thank him for convincing us that why we should not belief in his faith because of logical absurdities and mind blocking illogicality
Freelover: “Also, a magnet is not 100% positive AND negative, it has a negative POLE and a positive POLE, and these are separate, not the same, any more than a zebra is 100% white and 100% black. It just has black and white parts”
RJ: May I correct you , bro?… IT’S DIFFERENT BUT NOT SEPARATE, cause True Natural Magnet will always has positive &negative . In term of Incarnated Jesus Christ He has always been 100% God Nature & 100% Perfect Human Nature since birth
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Freelover : “Your attempt to attribute a place to Allah is sub – moronic since he is meant to have created space and time.”
RJ: Why then to say as it is literally written in Quran being considered sub-moronic? Did you read carefully my previous comments (Jan 11) ? or did you read it “emotionally” ?
I’ve said the most logical definition if one interpret this ayah is: Allah is containable in Space called heaven. Actually I should not make my argument more clear to you if you can think normally my dear friend 8) Certainly what I meant with “the most logical interpretation” was in perspective of literal interpretation. You may deny this “emotionally” but you can’t deny this “logically” , cause this is exactly what your islamic scholars arguing among themselves when Non-Salafist scholar such al-Qurtubi, Al-Nawawi , Fakhr al-Din Razi & etc insisting to interpret this ayah figuratively and condemning those who interpret it literally (such as Ibn Taymiyya).
Salafist themselves didn’t want to be branded “heretic” so while they insisting to interpret this ayah literally they also had been forced to defined word “Fi” not in accordance with normal terminology.
So, this is not a case of attributing allah with something but showing you how quran “literally clear” in defining Allah… got it, bro? 8)
Freelover : “Bringing up Muslim ‘groups’ and heretical ideas will not help you at all. Will you accept the Unitarian Christians’ interpretation of the person of Christ? Or the Jehovah’s Witnesses? ”
RJ: Were Al-Qurtubi, Al Nawawi & Ibn Taymiyyah , heretics? As far as i know I’ve only brought opinions from respected Sunni’s scholar.
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Freelover : “The Quraan clearly states that it contains ayats that are metaphorical and other ayats which are clear, and that people with a disease in their hearts will argue about the metaphorical ones.”
RJ: So people like Imam Al-Qurtubi, Imam Al-Nawawi , Imam Fakhr al-Din Razi & goes on etc..who insisting to interpret this ayah metaphorically ., HAVE DISEASE IN THEIR HEARTS? Oh my
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Freelover : It is funny that a Christian (even a dumb one like yourself) should accuse Dr Mustapha of anthropomorphism, since you guys are the ultimate man – worshippers!
RJ: See… could you ever notice how emotional you can get?
For example how do you ever get this conclusion that I accused Dr.Mustapha as anthropomorphist? please be logical & “Not Overly Emotional”.. take a grip of yourself, will u my dear friend? 
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Freeelover: And if you want to play the literalism game and take everything in the Quraan literally, well I suggest you do the same for Christianity. Like when Jesus says ‘The Father is greater than I’.
RJ: No problem.. Since it’s LITERALLY TRUE ,if you logically seeing it in right perspective
Continues
Freelover : “To say that there is an object that is infinite and finite, God and man is a Square Circle, as Kunde clearly pointed out”
RJ: Sorry if you have to be SCHOOLED again my friend, let me correct you:
To sincerely define Infinite as object would be heretic, cause how can any object be Infinite since allah is not an object and nothing can be truly be Infinite other than God , agree? Empirically speaking how can you know that the infinite can’t incarnate Himself as Jesus Christ who is both Infinite & Finite, since there are no comparison to observe this phenomenon?
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Freeelover : as Williams stated, many of your ideas, like MODALISM are heretical even to mainstream Christianity, so there is no point Muslims wasting time on you, you should be debated by other Christians first, since you are not a proper Christian
RJ: Really? Or is it actually your idea & Mr.Williams idea that accuse me of Modalism?
I truly believe in One God as Three Persons / Hypostasis (The Father, The Son & Holy Spirit) that can’t be mixed each other and I knew them in The Name of Jesus… can you logically define this as Modalism? what’s your proof? please i humbly ask if you may explain …..
Freelover : “Why don’t you advise them to promote Islam in Indonesia the same way that Christianity was promoted there? ”
RJ: i see that you comments becoming more&more ridiculous my friend, From a foreigner like you , what do you mean by promoting Islam in Indonesia should be as same as promoting Christian ?
Do you mean Islamic prayer should be restricted cause it make a lot of noise, especially in the morning Adzan as same as christian here that in many places we may be threatened by authority or angry mob if we even have small fellowship in houses?
Do you mean restriction in Islamic Bookstore not to display any offensive materials toward Christian, since we christian not even allowed to display any “soft respectful material” that questioning Islam.
Do you mean restriction in building a mosque like any other non-muslim place of worship being restricted here?
Do you mean muslim will also being punish if preaching in public criticizing and even condemning christian harshly when even a “healthy respectful questiong” of islam by us would be considered blasphemy and violating the law?
Wow,,, I surely hope so if that is what you mean my friend…
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Freelover : By colonising the country for hundreds of years and brutally suppressing other religions while raping the country literally and figuratively.
RJ: I see you are just taking long way down to pit my friend. If u meant the colonizer as christian then you wrong cause I am actually the victim of colonization, what’s the different with present Muslim Kurd or with former Turkish colony in North Africa or former Timurlenk colony in Persia, which one the true muslim then? the colonized people or the colonizer ?
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Freelover : Spanish spread Christianity to your neighbour, the Philippines, by destroying the Sultanate of Manilla (amongst others) and having an Inquisition and forcibly converting the population. Contrast this with how Islam came to Indonesia.
RJ: Although Philipine is my neighbour but considering my STATUS as foreigner to philipinos, I don’t want to comment something out of my league concerning Philippine nation. But as Indonesian I know well about my country’s history that yes i admit Islam firstly came in peace. But it was not pure Sunnis muslim instead it was Sufism that heavily believe in “Wahdatul Wujud” which is a doctrine that was held by Al-Hallaj (Sufi heretic in 9th CE).
This peaceful doctrine were widely received by majority of Hindus &Budhist in that time because beside the peaceful nature of Sufist follower , this doctrine of mingling God and Man were also not too different with Hindu-Budhist teaching. Not until the next wave of Islam then this kind of teaching were forbidden, some of its prominent Imam (Sheikh Siti Djenar) were executed in charge of heresy , many popular wonderful poetries by famous Sufist such as Hamzah Al-Fansuri were being burned … quite an “INQUISITION” don’t u think ?
Many Sufist were forced to abandoned their former belief of Al-Halaj Sufism, and at this time thanks to former Sufist Muslim , Islam had already gained power in Indonesia. But still in spite of Islamic development there were still Hindu Kingdom in certain part in Island of Java (Padjajaran Kingdom), sadly Non-Sufist Islamic Kingdom in Java made an ally with Arab traders and conquered the last Hindu kingdom in Java island. Then most Hindus were running away to Bali island.
There are more hidden beneath than what that are being seen in surface, and i speak as an Indonesian native, btw thank you for showing me your poor knowledge about my country
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Freelover : The Dutch missionaries even used money from the Americans under the Marshall plan, donated to help reconstruct Europe after WWII, to brutally suppress the Indonesian independence movement
RJ: Dutch missionary suppressing Independence movement using US funds? Since when secular 20th century Dutch Protestant becoming 11th Century Papacy? Little bit backward kind of thinking won’t u agree? Thank you again for your poor knowledge of my country that shows your habit in commenting something that you don’t have any clue about it.
Btw our national history acknowledge that spreading religion was not policy of Netherland Kingdom
Some founding fathers and heroes are Christian actually and if not for them Indonesia will become Sharia Nation.
Continues
HAHAHAHAHA!
So funny and long winded! I had a good time reading this waffle, it cheered me up! Thank you so much!
I was going to refute you on again, but then I realised that you did not make any points worthy of refutation, and the crème de la crème is that you don’t even know the history of you own country!
Oh I forgot, you did make one point, and as for the Muslims adopting ‘sufi’ or heretical practices, I’ll take your word for it since you are an expert on heresy, being a heretic from Christianity yourself.
In the Honour Of Your Lord The Netherlands My Friend. Smile!
@ Freelover
Thank u for showing your inability to answer even the slightest of my refutation, since u just throwing ad hominem without writing any descent&logical sentence
Please be cool for the sake of decency&honor among religions…. & stay out of crack KIDS!
Peace be upon you In Jesus Christ
Dr.Mustafa;
I would again sum up that you may understand your own contradiction :
1. Dr.Mustafa previously commented “God is not having any end but man is having an end so how can you have no end and an end at the same time….Man will die and then will be raised for reward or punishment by god so man is not eternal because he will die first before the eternal life but god cannot die””
RJ: I have just reminded him that even Islam admit man will live without no end, but you still childishly insist that Islam never said that and relating it with all men will die. Of course all men will die, but it’s just their physic & not spiritual, again I want to bring you this problem:
DO U BELIEVE MAN WILL TOTALLY BEING ANNIHILATE (SPIRITUALLY &PHYSICALLY) WHEN DIED, IF SO HOW CAN HE STILL BE “ALIVE” & COMMUNICATING IN GRAVE WITH ANGEL OF DEATH, THEN?
And please don’t hide your incapability to debate by throwing ad hominem mockery such as :dumb; mindless idiot, etc., have your mother ever teach you any manner? please behave properly doctor! coz your mockery won’t in anyway save you from being exposed
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2. Dr.mustafa said: “Iam not a all insisting on heretical idea .Iam very clear that believing Jesus as 100% god and 100% man the same time is contradictory and i have given enough proofs to show this is indeed contradictory.”
RJ: My condolence for u doctor, have u ever read my explanation in clear mind& non prejudice heart? I’ve already stated something incomprehensible doesn’t necessarily making it contradictory
For instance in TILL NOW YOU KEEP ON REFUSING TO CONDEMNED AS SHIRK THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIM (ASHARI&MATURIDI) THAT BELIEVE SPEECH OF QURAN AS BOTH UNCREATED &CREATED, why are you so double standard doctor ?Pathetically your own doctrine of quran in fact can be considered as “minority view”
Another example: How God as Timeless entity co-mingled with time. Surely God is beyond &above time so He shouldn’t have a Past, coz if he had then He can be considered “bound/restricted” by his creation (time). But when God interact with his creation, as He speaks or acts it seems He sort of bounded by time cause logically if God speak then obviously it would create a state of God not speaking and state where God is speaking. State of God not speaking can be looked as PAST, but we all know that God don’t have a past coz He is Timeless entity. To really determine how God act in time while keeping his Timeless Nature is incomprehensible to be determined by human mind, but again it’s not necessarily to define this incomprehensibility as contradictory.
Continues
3. Dr.Mustafa : “Again,God limiting his ability (like not showing his mercy to some) will not make him devoid of having that ability, still God will be having it ,but man on the other hand will have limit on his capabilities no matter how much he has it .So how can one be having limitless ability and having limited ability at the same time so 100% god and 100% man together is contradiction”
RJ :Can you take a minute to ponder on your own answers? I’ve already said Incarnation was not Mutual Absorption between God&Man , but you just blindly accusing us as if God annihilate His ability when becoming man. Apparently also u still blindly neglected the Temple Principal (John 2:21)
In OT Israelite regard theTemple as point of worship (Qibla)
In NT we christian regard Jesus Christ as Perfect Living Temple & point of worship
In OT God dwell in Temple without God becoming The temple vice versa
In NT God dwell perfectly &Eternally in Christ Humanity without His Humanity becoming God vice versa
continues
4.Dr.Mustafa said : “.I only said god himself is not dwelling in the cloud and even both Jewish and christian commentators accept this…..Before commenting read first what iam saying understand it then comment .You don’t even seem to understand this simple thing but is repeating your nonsense”
RJ: Unfortunately for you I’m also taking reference from your references (Mathew Henry &John Gill)
-Mathew Henry said ” In all believers God the Father dwells, as in his holy temple, by his Spirit and special grace. (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=4&com=mhc)
this is an affirmative statement which notify us God dwell in Temple as in 1 Kings 8:10-12 BY HIS SPIRIT
From reading IN CONTEXT definitely Mathew Henry was speaking of Holy Spirit when he talked about Divine Glory that dwell within the Temple
-John Gill said,”in allusion to Solomon’s temple; which as it was a type of the natural, so of the mystical body of Christ. There is an agreement between that and the church of Christ, in its maker, matter, situation, magnificence, and holiness; and the church is said to be the temple of God, because it is of his building, and in which he dwells: what the apostle here says of the saints at Corinth, the Jewish doctors say of the Israelites (n), , “the temple of the Lord are ye”; and which being usually said of them in the apostle’s time, he may refer unto; and much better apply to the persons he does, of which the indwelling of the Spirit was the evidence:
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you: in particular members, as a spirit of regeneration, sanctification, faith, and adoption, and as the earnest and pledge of their future glory; in their ministers to fit and qualify them for their work, and carry them through it; and in the whole church, to bless the word and ordinances, for their growth, comfort, and establishment. This furnishes out a considerable proof of the deity and distinct personality of the Spirit, since this is mentioned as an evidence of the saints being the temple of God, which would not be one, if the Spirit was not God, who dwells therein; and since a temple is sacred to deity, and therefore if he dwells here as in a temple, he must dwell here as God; and since he is mentioned as distinct from God, whose Spirit he is, and dwelling, a personal action is ascribed to him, he must be a distinct divine person. “(http://gill.biblecommenter.com/1_corinthians/3.htm)
Please I humbly plea to sincere honesty in reading Mathew Henry&John Gill in WHOLE CONTEXT and not as you partially quoted before..thank u
not only that but your false claim that u base your view on biblical orthodoxy has been easily debunked since I’ve already present you the evidence of Shekinah in the cloud being regarded as Holy Spirit by Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm &(http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html)..continues
3. Dr.Mustafa : “Again,God limiting his ability (like not showing his mercy to some) will not make him devoid of having that ability, still God will be having it ,but man on the other hand will have limit on his capabilities no matter how much he has it .So how can one be having limitless ability and having limited ability at the same time so 100% god and 100% man together is contradiction”
RJ :Can you take a minute to ponder on your own answers? I’ve already said Incarnation was not Mutual Absorption between God&Man , but you just blindly accusing us as if God annihilate His ability when becoming man. Apparently also u still blindly neglected the Temple Principal (John 2:21)
In OT Israelite regard theTemple as point of worship (Qibla)
In NT we christian regard Jesus Christ as Perfect Living Temple & point of worship
In OT God dwell in Temple without God becoming The temple vice versa
In NT God dwell perfectly &Eternally in Christ Humanity without His Humanity becoming God vice versa
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4.Dr.Mustafa said : “.I only said god himself is not dwelling in the cloud and even both Jewish and christian commentators accept this…..Before commenting read first what iam saying understand it then comment .You don’t even seem to understand this simple thing but is repeating your nonsense”
RJ: Unfortunately for you I’m also taking reference from your references (Mathew Henry &John Gill)
-Mathew Henry said ” In all believers God the Father dwells, as in his holy temple, by his Spirit and special grace. (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=4&com=mhc)
this is an affirmative statement which notify us God dwell in Temple as in 1 Kings 8:10-12 BY HIS SPIRIT
From reading IN CONTEXT definitely Mathew Henry was speaking of Holy Spirit when he talked about Divine Glory that dwell within the Temple
-John Gill said,”in allusion to Solomon’s temple; which as it was a type of the natural, so of the mystical body of Christ. There is an agreement between that and the church of Christ, in its maker, matter, situation, magnificence, and holiness; and the church is said to be the temple of God, because it is of his building, and in which he dwells: what the apostle here says of the saints at Corinth, the Jewish doctors say of the Israelites (n), , “the temple of the Lord are ye”; and which being usually said of them in the apostle’s time, he may refer unto; and much better apply to the persons he does, of which the indwelling of the Spirit was the evidence:
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you: in particular members, as a spirit of regeneration, sanctification, faith, and adoption, and as the earnest and pledge of their future glory; in their ministers to fit and qualify them for their work, and carry them through it; and in the whole church, to bless the word and ordinances, for their growth, comfort, and establishment. This furnishes out a considerable proof of the deity and distinct personality of the Spirit, since this is mentioned as an evidence of the saints being the temple of God, which would not be one, if the Spirit was not God, who dwells therein; and since a temple is sacred to deity, and therefore if he dwells here as in a temple, he must dwell here as God; and since he is mentioned as distinct from God, whose Spirit he is, and dwelling, a personal action is ascribed to him, he must be a distinct divine person. “(http://gill.biblecommenter.com/1_corinthians/3.htm)
Please I humbly plea to sincere honesty in reading Mathew Henry&John Gill in WHOLE CONTEXT and not as you partially quoted before..thank u
not only that but your false claim that u base your view on biblical orthodoxy has been easily debunked since I’ve already present you the evidence of Shekinah in the cloud being regarded as Holy Spirit by Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm &(http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html)
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5 .In continuation from problem no.2, ln all do respect please be gentleman at least once, “doctor” , cause you yourself said ,”“These commentaries does not say God himself dwelt in the cloud IT IS JUST HIS PRESENCE”
So AGAIN I ASK YOU; HOW CAN THE PRESENCE OF AN ENTITY BE NOTICEABLE IN SOMETHING SUCH AS CLOUD BUT IN THE SAME TIME THIS ENTITY IS NOT PRESENT IN THAT CLOUD?”
Please don’t hide in dishonest way by twisting Matthew Henry&John Gill commentary, since I’ve already given you what their true opinion is about Holy Spirit God who truly dwell in the temple
You yourself after repeated intensive “interrogation” finally admit that Christian does regard the divine glory as holy spirit as quoted “The glory which is talked about here, i never said that this glory is holy spirit or he is not. Jews say no ,Christians say yes”
Please if u may kindly explain WHY YOU SAY CHRISTIANS SAY YES? what is the meaning of your sentence,sir?
And may I know as far as your observation , does ever majority of Christians not admit on Holy Spirit as God ?..please answer if u kindly would
Continues