Sam Shamoun agrees, sins could be forgiven without the Cross
Posted: January 12, 2012 Filed under: articles by Sami Zaatari, Christianity 14 Comments »After Paul Bilal Williams’ successful debate on the topic of salvation, missionary Sam Shamoun attempted to partake in some damage limitation control with a series of 14 rebuttals. The irony in Shamoun’s ‘rebuttals’ is that he simply affirmed the arguments that were put forward by Paul Williams. For example one of the arguments put forward by Williams was that the cross and crucifixion were not really needed, as there was already a method in place for people to have their sins removed and forgiven, and Paul gave examples of why this was so according to the New Testament itself. Obviously this poses major problems for Christology, as the crucifixion is literally the bedrock of Christianity. So out comes the major irony in Sam Shamoun who writes the following:
Jesus is seen forgiving sins, healing diseases, and knowing what people were thinking within themselves. Yet according to the Hebrew Bible, not only does Yahweh heal all diseases he is also the only one who forgive sins and knows what a person is thinking in his/her heart… In light of the foregoing, isn’t any wonder that the scribes who knew the Law thought that Jesus was blaspheming since they knew from the Jewish Scriptures that Christ was claiming an ability that belonged to God alone? And as far as they were concerned, Jesus was nothing more than a flesh and blood Jewish man who should have known better than to claim such exclusive divine functions and abilities for himself. (http://answeringislam.net/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/god_incarnate1.html)
Sam Shamoun is essentially trying to argue that Jesus must be God because he was able to forgive people of their sins; the major irony is that Shamoun doesn’t realize that he is simply affirming Williams’ argument! The fact that Jesus was able to forgive sins BEFORE HE WENT ON A CROSS proves that sins could be forgiven and removed WITHOUT the cross, it shows that the crucifixion was not needed, and that Jesus could’ve simply forgiven people of their sins. Furthermore Shamoun states that this proves Jesus must be God as only God can forgive sin, therefore Shamoun affirms this attribute of God, that he is the forgiving one, i.e. he can forgive sins, so once again this proves the cross and crucifixion was not needed as all God could have done was to forgive people of their sins!
All in all this shows that the crucifixion was NOT the only method of forgiveness, there was a far more simple way of removing sins, and it was by the act of forgiveness. No blood, no death, no human sacrifice, but the simple act of: ‘I forgive you’.
[comment deleted] Please respect MDI’s public decency policy in the comments – Ed.
And you can keep barking, but it won’t silence me Sam, and that’s what really really makes you angry, that there will be people who will oppose the rubbish you spew, and there is NOTHING you can do about it, not even with all your shouting, nada, zilch, your powerless.
Haha, someone’s angry! I think you need to learn how things work on this website, this website is run by myself, Paul, and Abdullah, MDI members, so it’s not Paul posting my stuff, it’s me posting my stuff.
Furthermore nobody cares about your opinions of others, you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself telling Paul who he should and should not associate with for his reputation, but I hate to break it to you, all of us have a very very low opinion of you, and the advice you give should be given to your colleagues, that they should wise up and steer clear away from people as yourself.
lool, a whopping 14 responses. That looks like all he does all day, with his fingers spread on a keyboard. Just look at his YouTube comments he left on people’s profiles. I think he is concerned more with rebutting individuals, than rebutting the arguments. That’s probably why he repeats his arguments again and again. If he is reading this, he should realize that too much near work could cause eye problems (not that I am concerned for Shamoun).
Yes, Sami is correct: this website is run by Sami, Paul, Abdullah and other MDI members.
Glad to hear there’s a decency policy ed. Can we see it anywhere?
Tom, I refer you to my comment posted earlier today:
A Message to Mr S Shamoun from the Muslim Debate Initiative
I have been sent a request to moderate your latest comment. Usually this is just a formality and I happily approve comments. But on this occasion I was very disappointed to read your comment and I regret that I cannot in good conscience allow it to be approved on the MDI website.
We at MDI adhere to certain standards in our debates and public discourse (see our two most recent debates for example). We always welcome non-Muslim contributions even when they extremely critical of the beliefs we hold, as long as they are expressed in an intellectually serious manner and with due decency and respect.
To publish your comment on this website would breach these standards, therefore your ‘new comment waiting approval’ has been trashed.
I invite you to resubmit the text but this time expressing yourself in ways that are consistent with the values that are common to all people of Faith.
yours sincerely
Paul Williams
(on behalf of MDI)
http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/12/31/can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/#comments
Good stuff.
[...] by Sami Zaatari, reposted from the MDI Site [...]
Greetings Everyone, In The Name of Jesus “God of US ALL”
Hopefully I may help in lowering everybody’s tension here …
As a Christian I see no problem with Bro.Sam statement concerning this matter, it’s obviously the muslim who misunderstood it out of context.
Mr.Zataari said ,” The fact that Jesus was able to forgive sins BEFORE HE WENT ON A CROSS proves that sins could be forgiven and removed WITHOUT the cross, it shows that the crucifixion was not needed, and that Jesus could’ve simply forgiven people of their sins”
The answer being describe in Matthew 8:16-17 ;
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matthew quoting from “crufixition chapter” Isaiah 53
It tells us that His acts of healing the sick were done based on FULFILLING “THE PRE-PLANNED ACT OF THE CROSS” , as also being clearly stated in Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD”
Again it clearly tells us that God Acts of Mercy toward us (especially Forgiveness) have been done according to the basis of “Slaying of The Lamb of God FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD”.
Crucifixion clearly was , is and has always been the basis of OUR forgiveness from God, The Holy Bible told us that simple, plain & clear. I hope this would CALM any troubling in my dear muslim friend’s mind.
Peace of Jesus God of us ALL , May be upon Everybody here…
But Jesus was not crucified at the foundation of the world, he was crucified up to 2000 years after Jewish writings and ways of forgiveness for the people without any need of a human sacrifice. Okay, the act of the cross may have been pre-planned, but doesn’t change the fact that before it ever did come into actuality, people were being forgiven of their sins without a cross, which again demonstrates the main point I am making, that God could and did forgive sins WITHOUT a cross, and without a sacrifice of a human on the cross. Okay, he had it planned for the future, BUT, AGAIN, he was still forgiving people of their sins without it, so this again shows forgiveness COULD BE ACHIEVED without a cross, so if it could be done before the cross, then the cross is not needed, as the cross is only needed it it COULD NOT BE DONE, and I ask you, can sins be forgiven WITHOUT the cross? we both know the answer, yes, sins CAN BE FORGIVEN without the cross, and that’s the main point.
As for Isaiah 53, Isaiah 53 says nothing about any resurrection, which is a fundamental aspect of the entire crufiixtion account, as Paul said, if Jesus did not rise, then everything’s in vain. So how is it possible that if Isaiah 53 was about the cross, that it failed to mention THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of the whole episode, which is the resurrection after 3 days? Secondly, why didn’t the Jewish people who had been reading Isaiah 53 for decades ever interpret it in a manner of believing a human would come and die for their sins? Why is it that the very Jews of Jesus’ time were not expecting anybody to come and die for their sins? It’s wishful thinking to try and use the OT to somehow show it taught about somebody dying for the sins of the world.
Asalamualaiakum Mr.Zataari May Peace of Isa a-Masih be upon you, my friend…
Mr.Zataari said, “I ask you, can sins be forgiven WITHOUT the cross?”
RJ : Of course not, sadly you’ve still got it wrong, sir… The Right Principle as being clearly laid in Matthew 8, that Jesus acts of mercy (which being done before the cross) were based on His “Incoming Act” of The Cross. And this Incoming Act actually is the Application of what God have already established from eternity (Rev 13:8).
So it’s clear ,The Basis of God Mercy have already being established FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, & in that case every act of forgiveness that God had performed actually refer to “Lamb being Slayed from the foundation of the world.”. It just take a clear mind &undefiled heart to understand, Sir…
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Mr.Zataari said,”THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of the whole episode, which is the resurrection after 3 days?”
RJ: The resurrection was stated in Isaiah 53 verse 10 -11 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand. Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
(verse 10) word “prolong” in Hebrew means “long life” , you can see that in previous chapter (8&9)confirming His death (by sentence : cut from the living & made His grave with the wicked), so logically how can a dead person as the same time also has his life prolongs..write ?
(verse 11) “He shall see the full “in the oldest Isaiah Manuscript (Dead Sea Scroll) it was written ” Of the toil of his soul he shall see light, and be satisfied”
In OT often describes Light as a resemblance of Live as in Isaiah 9:1 ,”1 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light; they that dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined
Psalm 56:14, For Thou hast delivered my soul from death; hast Thou not delivered my feet from stumbling? that I may walk before God in the light of the living.
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Mr.Zataari asked ,”Why is it that the very Jews of Jesus’ time were not expecting anybody to come and die for their sins?
RJ: Contrary to your assumption despite of Jewish people effort trying very hard in denying their own “original view” regard to heavy Antichristian tendency in Pharisaic Judaism, still the truth can;t be hidden quite well by them
Babylonian Talmud, (Sanhedrin 98), p.2 “Rabbi Yochanan said, The Messiah-what is his name?… And out Rabbis said. “the pale one”… is his name, as it is written “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows-yet we considered him stricken by G-d, smitten by him and afflicted.”
Midrash Ruth Rabbah: 2:14 “Another explanation (of Ruth ii.14): — He is speaking of king Messiah; `Come hither,’ draw near to the throne; `and eat of the bread,’ that is, the bread of the kingdom; `and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,’ this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities’”
Rabbi Moses, ‘The Preacher’(11. Century) wrote in his commentary on Genesis (page 660):
“From the beginning God has made a covenant with the Messiah and told Him,’My righteous Messiah, those who are entrusted to you, their sins will bring you into a heavy yoke’..And He answered, ‘I gladly accept all these agonies in order that not one of Israel should be lost.’ Immediately, the Messiah accepted all agonies with love, as it is written: ‘He was oppressed and he was afflicted’.”
Btw for the 3 days stuff that Anti-Christ people often complain about had been answered by the founding of an ancient artifact called Gabrielle Revelation Stone, apparently ancient Jews do believe in Messiah that would come and being resurrected after 3 DAYS http://www.bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp
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After this I hope my dear muslim friend will come to their senses and repent from their misguided believe &eventually come unto the feet of Isa Al-Masih their God…
May Peace of Our God Jesus Christ be upon you. Bro! .. Cheers
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