Adam Deen on BBC ‘The Big questions’ :Is there evidence for God? 15/1/12
Posted: January 25, 2012 Filed under: Uncategorized 60 Comments »Taking part are the priest and particle physicist, Dr Andrew Pinsent; The Times columnist, David Aaronovitch; the Muslim thinker, Adam Deen; leading atheist scientist, Professor Peter Atkins; bible scholar, Francesca Stavrakopoulou; author, Charles Foster; Patsy McKie, founder of Mothers Against Violence; and the former Triad gangster turned Methodist Minister, Kim Goh.
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Mashallah. Thank you Brother Deen for going on the show and presenting the way you did. May Allah reward you.
there are no errors in quran.the errors mentioned have already been explained.the quran doesnot say that marry is part of trinity.it just refers to the fact that catholics exalt her to the level of God.As far as another is concerned,here quran refers to the lineage of marry which is way the people used to call in that times
Hashim said: “the errors mentioned have already been explained.the quran doesnot say that marry is part of trinity.it just refers to the fact that catholics exalt her to the level of God.”
RJ: Nope, your assumption is in contrary to surah 5:116-117 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I had ever said it, then Thou wouldst have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? (116) I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things. (Pickthal)
In previous verse of al-maidah (73-76) argued on this alleged “TRITHEISM Idea” by including Mary in the scene with sentence “The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food” which its intention is to show the humanity of Jesus&Mary
The Arabic word “llahayni” means TWO GODS
Although Catholic sometime exaggerate Mary’s status but Catholic never acknowledge her as God, the appropriate term would be “Wali” rather than “Ilah” almost similar with Muslim exaggerating muhamad status.
Quran clearly had failed to address any error about trinity, cause even if quran wanted to object a particular minority sect (maryology) BUT Sadly to say, “How can quran argued on MINOR matters when MAJOR matter (Divinity of Holy Spirit) was never being clearly objected? Cause not once quran dare to mention its rejection on Divinity of Holy Spirit as it rejected (alleged) Divinity of Mary.
And last, frankly the main theme of those debate was “Proving Existence of God by People of Various Religions”, It supposed to be co-operation between people of faith hand in hand against atheism!! But it seems from muslim side(especially the imam) has used those forum TO STAB ANOTHER FAITH IN THE BACK! quite a CHEAP SHOT from muslim I might say!
Brother john,i must confess that you are good at defending your lies and i think you will be the only one in the world who has guts to stand for thousands of irrefutable errors in the bible but in vain.I saw your articles with brother mustafa and you postulated a new theory that light has dual nature at same time.
As far as the verses you are just refering to,where does these verses mention about trinity?you are interpereting it that way for your ulterior motives.when the quran mentions about marry being worshiped as God, it just refers to both maryology sect,as well as to catholics. you said ” catholics donot exalt marry to the level of divinity” Brother same question was asked to prophet by one of his companions that when he was a christian,he never considered marry to be god.the prophet replied that exalting a human being higher than what he/she deserves is similar to exalting to the level of God and you will agree to me that catholics exalt marry to higher level.you may say that they donot exalt her to the level of god but in the eyes of ALLAH it is exalting marry to status of God. this is what this verse means that is marry has been exalted to higher level and for your kind information even intercession is forbidden for muslims because we are pure monotheists
QURAN can answer both major as well as minor sects.Do you think that minor sects should not be adressed.
QURAN deals with trinity in almaidah v 73 73. ‘They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.’
Muslims donot exalt muhammad(pbuh) to the level of GOD.For muslims he is just last messanger
see debate between bassam zawadi and james white on the topic”have muslims misunderstood christianity”
please donot brings anis shorishs points who has been debunked so many times
Asalamualaikum wr.wb Brother Hashim
May Peace of Isa Al-Masih calm your mind&soul
Hashim said,”see debate between bassam zawadi and james white on the topic”have muslims misunderstood christianity”
Actually on the contrary, I encourage you to “clearly” observe the debate of Bassam vs James White. Definitely the misunderstanding is yours my friend
” Another “Quranic Error begun in Surah 5 :73,”They have certainly disbelieved who say, ” Allah is the third of three.”
Even from this we can see “allah OR muhamad” had assumed christian believed in THREE GODS where allah was one of those three. This isn’t Trinity but TRITHEISM (heretic idea that had already been condemned by church fathers prior to muhammad).
On verse 75, emphasize in how human Jesus&Mary are by stating “They both eat food”
And verse 76 again punctuate that none other can be worshiped than allah, then in verse 116 quran emphasize on rejecting mary as part of trinity becoming more clearer by this statement ,”And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’”
the word being used as “Deities” here is ILHAYNI =TWO GODS, and the whole sentence can be read as “TWO GODS BESIDES ALLAH”, so it’s perfectly match with the main theme that “muhamad OR allah” wanted to present since verse 73, which was “Do not regard Allah as part of Three”
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Hashim said,”Muslims donot exalt muhammad(pbuh) to the level of GOD.For muslims he is just last messanger …..even intercession is forbidden for muslims because we are pure monotheists ”
RJ: My dear brother, I see u kind of bring your own islamic interpretation here (Salafist, I presume?
) I’ve never said that muslim regard Muhamad as “Ilah” but certainly you have to admit that MAJORITY of Muslim regard Muhamad as “WALI” right? Tawassul (Asking dead islamic saints to intercede) is a Halal norm in my country(the largest muslim country in the world). All I’m saying is if “muhamad OR allah” knew what he was doing then he should know catholic regards Mary quite similar as regarding muhammad as WALI, coz again there are no healthy minded catholic see Mary as god as also no muslim see muhamad as Allah.
But unfortunately for you, you are bringing trouble upon yourself coz u’ve created contradiction here, as you also previously said ,”that exalting a human being higher than what he/she deserves is similar to exalting to the level of God and you will agree to me that catholics exalt marry to higher level.”
By your comment then those MAJORITY of Sunni muslims who perform Tawassul can be called “Mushirk” then, right? even Shia who consider Ahlul-Bayt as more holly than normal human being are committing shirk right? The most devastating is ALL MUSLIM regard muhamad as Praise worthy (even allah Praise him), it contradicts with “Al-Hamid” Nature of allah where ALL PRAISE should belong to allah and nothing else. You’ve just plunged yourself into pit of dilemma my friend!
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Hashim said : “QURAN can answer both major as well as minor sects.Do you think that minor sects should not be adressed.”
RJ: U’ve got it wrong brother, please carefully&”rationally” consider this, If quran even do care about a tiny little “sect”such as Maryology why would quran NOT EVEN MENTION ANY CLEAR OBJECTION ON DIVINITY OF HOLY SPIRIT ? This is undeniably an issue which far more crucial than heretical idea of a tiny little heretical sect in christianity, wouldn’t u agree ,bro?…
By this rational observation my argument can be safely concluded as still unrefuted!
Sorry bro no offense , but you got to try harder than just presenting your “fragile” argument here .. Peace In The name of Isa Al-Masih
dear brother regular john,
asalamualiekum,
onething i must agree with you is that you are correct in saying that i am a muslim who follows salafi school of thought.i agree with you that there are muslims who do intercession e.g in my place called kashmir but how does it matter when you yourself know that majority of christians(catholics) themselves do intercession which for us is exalting her to the level of god same is the case with sufi muslims,the reason they do it is because of there lack of knowledge of quran.
you said quran does not deal with major christian belief let me tell you what quran has to said about this chapter 5 73. ‘They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them’. abdullah yousuf ali translation.
when allah is not part of trinity,it automatically implies that others are not god.what are you saying trinity is different from tritheism when there are three gods itself in trinity so how can there be any difference and quran here clearly mentions about trinity here.
the verse you mentioned again refers to the fact that catholics exalt marry to the level of god same way as you rightly mention about sufi muslims.
meanwhile i am sure you will get noble priza for postulating light as dual nature at same time.
i pray you soon accept islam as true way of life and believe in errorless book quran and refrain from errors in bible
meanwhile clearl observe the debate between bassam zawadi and james white
brother john,
what is your opinion on debate between zakir naik and william campbell brother john and recent debate by paul on salvation in islam and christianity
Asalamuaalaikum Peace In Isa Al-Masih,
Hashim said: “meanwhile i am sure you will get noble priza for postulating light as dual nature at same time”
RJ: u just don’t know what u have brought upon yourself, brother
.First time u mentioned this particle-wave stuff I let you go since it has nothing to do with topic in this thread,but since u bringing it up again ,so I guess I must teach a lesson about physics. Light & ALL MATTERS apparently consist of particle&wave BUT this duality can only be observed as Particle Only in one time or Wave Only in another time, but this is not the notion that particle is wave NOR light “sometime” consist of particle Only & in other time consist of wave only. Science acknowledge Light consist of particle&wave in spite of their manifestation can only be noticed separately, but in dealing with how the two comprise in synergic way . the term “time” can’t be applied to measure how these two entities(particle&wave) sinergyzing each other because of “Uncertainty Principle”, that’s also why this duality is being called Wave-Particle PARADOX . Please if u have any objection I happily waiting in http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/12/31/can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/
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Hashim:” i agree with you that there are muslims who do intercession e.g in my place called kashmir”
So by saying you were fully aware that intercession is being done by muslims then actually you’ve indirectly admitted that you have a narrow perspective (Salafist-ONLY), right? NOT ONLY THAT, but even MAJORITY OF SUNNIS (Ashariite &Maturidis ) and ALL SHIITE have no objection with Tawassul, so isn’t it pathetically desperate to force your own “tiny” idea and nullify the accepted doctrine by “majority” of muslims? So please I urge u to drop your “tiny sectarian attitude” if u want to represent “general” islam..
For me I can see clearly that Catholic clearly don’t regard mary as God , and it’s just the same with Majority muslim performing tawassul with no intention to regard muhamad as God. Don’t be such a narrow minded individual , shall we brother ?
In my experience in engaging muslim often in the end they end up refuting their own fellow islamic brethen.. Very ironic phenomena indeed.
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Hashim said: “when allah is not part of trinity,it automatically implies that others are not god.what are you saying trinity is different from tritheism when there are three gods itself in trinity so how can there be any difference and quran here clearly mentions about trinity here.”
RJ: You seem stuttering yourself in confusion my friend
,as Salafist do you consider Allah’s hand,face and leg as different Allah? Does Allah standing with His Face wil be the same as standing with His feet? You of course believe Allah has different part/element which function differently and so do we believe that ONE God consist of Three different Substantial Element(Hypostasis). So making one element as different God is purely heretic my friend 
“Muhamad OR allah” was clearly confused when stating that allah or Alaha(Aramaic) is one of three, his confusion became clearer as he emphasized humanity of mary(verse.73) and regarded mary as divine in verse 116.And the most obvious is in sentence,(v.116)” Worship me and my mother as TWO GODS BESIDES ALLAH?(Mochsin-khan translation) which suitably match with previous verse(v.73)”Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allah is the THIRD OF THE THREE”. What can be any clearer than that?
And you seem avoid to answer (or maybe accepting my argument already?
) about the logic behind quran addressing minor issue(divinity of mary) but couldn’t address the major issue(clear objection on divinity of holy spirit) which proof that muhammad true notion about Trinity was allah, Jesus and Mary, AND NOT One God as Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.
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Hashim: “what is your opinion on debate between zakir naik and william campbell brother john and recent debate by paul on salvation in islam and christianity”
RJ: Concerning Zakir Naik , seriously have you been clinging on that “old stuff” after all this time brother?, in my country christian debaters treated that Zakir Naik stuffs as breakfast my friend
Scientifically speaking Dr.Campbell had been succesfull in bringing scientific evidence to refute Zakir, but in oratorically speaking Zakir was successfull in twisting the truth. and Eventually because of his “cunning” attitude he also has created many enemies within muslim society itself.
If there are any material in Zakir-Campbell debate that you still hallucinating yourself as if it’s true, I’m happily to offer my self to “re-educate your mind” my friend
About Mr.Paul Williams debate,I think u should address the question to Mr.Williams himself instead of me, since He has been “awkwardly” avoiding to challenge my refutations on his unbiblical perspective of salvation , perhaps you can give The Head of MDI a hand,..please I humbly invite you to do that
(P.S please read threads below concerning this matter
http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/12/27/1133/
http://thedebateinitiative.com/2012/01/14/shamoun-continues-to-agree-sins-were-forgiven-before-and-without-the-cross/)
Peace In The Name of Isa al-Masih
Wasalam
Hello Regular John,
Could you please refer to the verse of the Bible which describes trinity so that you can base your argument that the Quran is wrong in that as you have said.
Thanks.
asalamualiekum brother john,
why are you so adamant in defending the intercession practice of certain muslims who form majority in certain muslim nations.i already told you hadith of regarding the exalting of individuals to higher level is considered as exalting to the level of god.i know you wont accept it because it refutes all your previous conclusions.quran here clearly refers to the exaltment of marry to more than normal level is considered as exalting her to the level of god and this verse also refers to the minority christian sect.even for the sake of agreement i may agree with you that only meaning of this verse is that marry is god and not the exalting stuff,i mentioned to you,still it is not wrong as you and i know that there is a minority sect which believes in this principle
the only way quran would be wrong if it had said that marry is a part of trinity and not by saying that donot consider marry to be god as i already mentioned minority christian sect believes in this
i am not being narrow minded i am just telling you truth that interceesion is forbidden in islam.
i canot imagine allah like christians do in the shape of human because quran says there is nothing like him.
what you are doing is juxtaposing different verses and interpreting it in your way son as to come to your conclusion.you said’god consists of three substantial elements’what will happen if one of them dies on cross.can 2 elements fulfil the requirements of god?
Asalamualaikum In Isa Al-Masih ,
Hashim
You just twisting and playing words, brother
Seeing in context Sura 5:73-76 definitely related with verse 116-117
where verse 73 said “Don’t say allah is one of three”
And verse 116 said concerning Jesus &Mary “TWO GODS BESIDES ALLAH
Even verse 75 give as early indication as it emphasizing humanity of Jesus&Mary,then verse 76 told us to to not worship other than allah, and all of these are clearly validated in verse 116 that say Jesus&mary as Two Gods besides allah
I can see that you’ve also sort of confusing yourself by stating,” here clearly refers to the exaltment of marry to more than normal level is considered as exalting her to the level of god”
So how many God did christian had then ? Four? See how ridiculous you have become?
The only logical reason for muhmad to ever come up with his statement concerning mary was his misunderstanding on Trinity.
Even if u try to give excuse that it’s to rebuke doctrine of a minority sect then it would be nearly silly coz why allah and muhamad ever care for rebuking “tiny” doctrine on divinity of mary but FORGOT to rebuke CRUCIAL DOCTRINE on the divinity of Holy Spirit?
Sorry bro, the evidence is lying there open.
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Hashim: “you said’god consists of three substantial elements’what will happen if one of them dies on cross.can 2 elements fulfil the requirements of god?”
RJ: Who teach you that God can die? please revise your question and be more intelligent in making an argument, brother… sorry no offense
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Hashim:i canot imagine allah like christians do in the shape of human because quran says there is nothing like him.
RJ: Actually i was not asking you to imagine as if God is human, but I just asking u about allah’s hand is it the same with allah’s foot? again seriously as Salafi do u believe God hears with his mouth, or sees with his foot? :lol
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Hasim said: “i am not being narrow minded i am just telling you truth that interceesion is forbidden in islam”
RJ: Of course u are delusioning yourself as if your view were true islamic doctrine, I can’t expect less from Sectarian wahabist like u, but come on brother,,
R you serious want to keep showing your immaturity to all who see your comment in this post? Since it’s an obvious fact that Ashariite&Maturidis who believe in intercession , Definitely they are the majority of Sunnis not to mention Shiites Muslim who also believe in intercession, and all that combine will make u a MINORITY. So please smell the coffee& face the reality my brother
Please don’t keep hiding in those Salafis box, will u?..
Peace Wasalam
Asalamualaikum David,
Certainly it’s my pleasure to help you see the truth…
Most profound to explain Trinity is Matthew 28:19, Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
This verse use word onomata to describe word “NAME”, if tritheism(THREE GODS) then it should be written “onomata” , this verse shows that The TRUE One God has triune nature.
It simply and plainly stated That God is Our Father who revealing Himself to us through Eternal Logos(The Son), and Holy Spirit.
Quran even admit that although One but God also PLURAL ,that’s why quran uses word “We” to describe God.
So why rejecting the truth,since quran admit it anyway, right?
Peace…sincerely
Hello Regular John,
Apparently the verse does not say that the three are one or they comprise the triune god. Even it does not say trinity. When Muslims quote The Quran to say that a person should preach the message of the Almighty God and at the same the prophet Muhmmad , we dont say that Muslims are talking about two gods and a manifestation of one god in the form of prophet Muhammad and Almighty God.
All in all, the verse you have quoted has been debated as it is thought to be an edition, a concoction and has no real basis….
People have different ideas. Have a look:-
http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/matthew-proof.html
http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/matt2819-willis.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Mt28_19.html
Now, I believe that when the bible itself is not clear about the the idea of trinity and it does not specify what’s called trinity, what on earth has happened to some christians that they accuse the Quran of containing an error regarding that very issue. It does not sound logical, in anyway, however hard a person tries..
Thanks.
dear brother john,
verse 73 of quran refutes the concept of trinity by saying that allah is not part of trinity.when allah is not part of trinity it automatically implies that concept of son and wholy ghost is also wrong
i think humanity is mentioned in verse 76 and not 73.the verse just means that jesus and marry both ate food which implies that humans eat food.
verse 116 just refers yto exaltment of marry and also the minority christian sect.
i find it amazing that william campbell who found out so many errors in quran could not defend himself in debate and even acknowledged his defeat if you think you have the knowledge then i will just request you is to go to youtube and challenge zakir naik for debate.he has only one precondition, you must be able to arrange 10000 people because he is too busy in converting christians to islam.if you cant arrange 10000 people,give your material to someon who can arrange 10000 people
meanwhile see the debate again bassam zawadi vs james white
Nope..Sorry Hashim if the truth disappoint you
Out of fanaticism you are refusing to see Trinity matter in sura 5 in context. Things has been went bad for muhammad since the time he accused mary as being regarded as God,cause it would make us having 4 Gods AND EVEN if muhamad’s intention was to addressing it on ‘tiny” maryology sect then would be silly to even care for those doctrine on this tiny sect without ever care on doctrine of Divinity of Holy Spirit.
Since not even once allah nor muhamad through quran dare to object Holy Spirit as God.
And quran has made it more confusing for muslim since Holy (Al-Quddus) is one of 99 sacred names of God, and this term is applied only to Holy Spirit (Ruh-al Quddus). Won’t it be shirk if sacred name of God such as Al-Quddus be applied to none other than allah?
Hashim : ” then i will just request you is to go to youtube and challenge zakir naik for debate.he has only one precondition, you must be able to arrange 10000 people because he is too busy in converting christians to islam.if you cant arrange 10000 people,give your material to someon who can arrange 10000 people
RJ: I think you’re some sort member of Zakir Naik fans club, and by your comment i can see you’re now becoming into more and more ridiculous by telling me to ask Zakir Naik for open debate! … O please , is this just a prank from MDI staff on me ? hahahahaha
O..my..God
if three persons are eating together does,does it mean they are forming single person again mention where is trinity.baptism in the name of three separate entities
You’ve violated your own principal which God can’t be compared with human, God’s essence can’t be compare in exact match with human essence bro. So your analogy initially already fault
Take an easy will u?
the we used in quran is royal ‘we’ as is often used in semetic languages and not single god but also plural e.g when the king say ” we will sign the agreement”
Nope..these “royal we” stuff or “plural majestic” is an invented concept by the jews in explaining word “we” in Genesis.
The problem in this structure is you can’t find any man using this “royal” term in Hebrew nor Arabic prior to islam and even couple centuries after islam. The worst is being shown by your example
When the king said we will sign the agreement, it actually meant The King&His kingdom, if u apply this kind of structure to sentence like :We create, We spoke ,etc then it’s indicate pantheism for it mean that Allah&His Kingdom create,spoke,etc…it’s bad analogy
Sorry no offense…
yes i am a fan of zakir naik,living in the region of south asia , i have sen how christian missionaries are scared by hearing his name only.
i just wanted you to save so many christians from converting to islam because of him and also relieve the pain these christian missionaries are suffering because of him.are you laughing at their pain?
i have become fan of you also because you make me laugh as your points are so comical with no substance sorry no offence
brother you said by exalting marry to the level of god means there should have been four gods then.
again brother you are twisting verses to get to your set conclusions.the verse simply means donot exalt her to the level of god as it is sin thus this verse acts as admonishment and it also refers to maryology sect.i will accept your contention if you show me where does quran say jesus and marry are part of trinity and not by showing jesus and marry are god because they are separate things altogether
verse 73 refers to the the fact that allah is not part of trinity.
brother you are sounding rediculous by twisting verses again and again so as to get to your conclusion.
i am not delusioning by saying to you that intercession is haram.
you had said that god consists of three elements,i just asked querry to know what happened to the god when one of the elements died on cross.
please have pity on so many christian missionaries.even your friends at answering islam are desparate for having debate with him after he debunked their hero william campbell.they cannot debate him because they cannot ARRANGE 10000 PEOPLE.I HOPE YOU WILL HELP THEM
Hashim: i am not delusioning by saying to you that intercession is haram.
RJ:Sadly to say certainly you are..bro! your sect is only minority in Ahlul sunnah compares to Asharite&Maturidis and more than that if being combined with Shiite then you would absolutely isolated in tiny island while still holding to your view of anti-intercession
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Please revise your question or in more exact please revise your way of thinking since you keep on repeating this heretical idea over&over again that God can Die , can u stop this silliness bro?
I think you have becoming more&more ridiculous started when you couldn’t refute my argument that seeing Surah 5 in a whole the most reasonable conclusion is “It talks about THREE GODS which ALLAH is ONE OF THEM(v.73) and Jesus&Mary is THE TWO GODS BESIDES ALLAH (v.116).
It’s so plain clear bro! why blinding yourself?
Unfortunately your ridiculousness just becoming more &more manifested as you bragging about Zakir Naik, what he has done, then you briefly share how you think about answering-islam.com (btw I don’t even have any relation with them accept I consider them as my brother in Christ Jesus as far as i know) , and THE FUNNIEST THING IS YOU EVEN TOLD ME TO DEBATE ZAKIr NAIK & ARRANGE 1000 PEOPLE SO IT MAY HAPPEND! hahahahahahahaha…. I almost think that I’m actually being PUNK’D by MDI Staff
O my..my..my… Take an easy will u bro?
AGAIN REPLY TO BROTHER DAVID WHERE IS TRINITY IN BIBLE
Just as same as u won’t find any word “Tauheed” in quran bro!
The Quran says that THe God is one, which means tawhid.
Show me a verse in the Bible that says there are three gods.
Peake’s Commentary on the Bible’ published since 1919, is universally welcomed and considered to be the standard reference book for the students of the Bible. Commenting on the above verse it records; “This mission is described in the language of the church and most commentators doubt that the trinitarian formula was original at this point in Mt.’s Gospel, since the NT elsewhere does not know of such a formula and describes baptism as being performed in the name of the Lord Jesus (e.g. Ac. 2:38, 8:16, etc.).”
2. Tom Harpur, author of several bestsellers and a former professor of New Testament, writes in his book `For Christ’s Sake’; “All but the most conservative of scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command was inserted later. The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available (the rest of the New Testament) that the earliest Church did not baptise people using these words – baptism was “into” or “in” the name of Jesus alone.”
3. The above command (authentic or otherwise) does not indicate that the three names mentioned in the formula are or were, “co- equal” in their status, as well as, were “co-eternal” in the time frame, to conform with the acknowledged `Doctrine of Trinity’.
4. If the Father and His Son were both in “existence” from the Day One, and no one was, a micro second before or after, and, no one was “greater or lesser” in status, than why is one called the Father and the other His begotten Son?
5. Did the act of “Begetting” take place? If YES, where was the “Begotten Son” before the act? If NO, why call him the “Begotten Son”?
Hot Tip:
“And Peter said to them, `Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;…’” (Acts 2:38). It is most unlikely that apostle Peter would have disobeyed the specific command of Jesus Christ for baptising in the three names and baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ, alone.
@Hashim
I think u should take hold of yourself bro!
Are u copy-pasting bro? but anyway i’ll answer this easy but MANY questions of yours
1.Speaking of The Name, Yes of course everyone should be baptized in The Name of Jesus and still it has to be specified with mentioning Name of Father,Name of Son & Name of Holy Spirit so people won’t mistakenly consider that Jesus is only refer to The Son, but actually also refer to the name of Father and Holy Spirit.
2.Its free for people to give opinion and create hypothesis that the content of Mat 28:19 was later inserted, but again when rubber meets the road as evidences being shown , Matt 28:19 do exist in Oldest Codex(Vaticanus&Sinaiticus)and church record of liturgy.
3.Term Co-eternal & Co-equal is theological term created after age of Apostles as term to describe Trinity. It is not so different with Islamic term such as Tauhid Rububiyah& Uluhiyah which being invented long after muhamad’s time . Would be silly to insist every theological term that emerged after biblical time have to be found in bible, as same as in islam.
4. Father & Son almost similar with God & Kalamullah, where God is the source of Eternal Kalamullah but Eternal Kalamullah is not the source of God.
5. You complain about “begetting”, in Greek the word also means ‘bring forth”, Wouldn’t The Eternal Kalamullah had to be bring forth first before all creatures received instruction from allah?
Peace & take a hold of yourself bro!
Hello again David
David said: “When Muslims quote The Quran to say that a person should preach the message of the Almighty God and at the same the prophet Muhmmad , we don’t say that Muslims are talking about two gods and a manifestation of one god in the form of prophet Muhammad and Almighty God. ”
RJ: Agreed, so to whom does your comment refer to then ? since i myself have never accused muslim as taking muhamad as god, I even kind of defending those muslim (Ashariite&Maturidi&Shiite) who being accused in doing shirk by Salafist boy Mr.Hashim. i hope you don’t begin your argument with empty remark though..
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For the link that you give me, i can see its main objection is the old klise hypothesis that Matthew 28:19 had been added and not primarily objection on the content. For this I can say that the oldest codex all contain this verse but if u want to debate it then it would be about the authenticity and not the meaning of the content.
Though I also find an objection that did questioning the content, but again this is just a Unitarian claim, unitarian christianism is not an orthodox doctrin btw, it would just the same as making Ahmadiyyah claim as strong as Shiite when eventually not! Since Shiite is as old as Sunni but ahmadi was newly made in 19th century.
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My brother David your believe certainly need some “improvement” my friend
If you honestly want to apply Surah 5 regarding this three gods stuff, then you will unavoidably have to include mary in trinity replacing The Holy Spirit OR u have to conclude that Christian believe in Quaternity.
Muhamad and allah’s error is so obvious my friend, if what muhamad or alah meant is mary as part of trinity then you have to admit the error is absolutely irrefutable and still if you want to twist that muhammad intention was to rebuke a tiny sect that believe in Trinity +Mary =Quaternity then the error still irrefutable since there is no record of christian sect that believe in quaternity. Even more than that by focusing on doctrine of tiny sect that was not clear in how they really believe , and not rather focus on clear objection on divinity of holy spirit then it would be an absurd way in objecting Trinity.
Quran’s absurdity is definitely obvious in this matter and it can’t necessarily being attached to how concept of Oneness of Trinity being presented clearly in Bible.
Hopefully u would come to your senses after this lesson..
Peace In Isa Al Masih
sincerely
Dear regular john,
I agree with you that prophet Muhammad is not believed to be a God and your question as to whom I referred to the issue seems a logical one. I understand. But have you ever heard of the word analogy? If you have heard , then why do you have such hard time to understand that I was drawing an analogy to show you how superficial and vague and at the same time illogical is the idea of trinity.
Matthew 28:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Does this verse say that there are three Gods in one?
Not only that, this verse is in stark contradiction with the verse the following verses:
Matt. 10:5 “Go not into the way of the Gentiles”
Matt. 15:24 “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
However, these matter little to christians who follow Paul instead of prophet jesus.
Now, Muslims preach the message of God and with that prophet Muhammad. From that you can not deduce that there are two gods in one. You cant, simply. But christians do exactly that with their verses. They commit the mistake of taking jesus a part of triune god, How illogical.
The Quran simply cant be wrong as it has identified the inherent problem in Christianity and in doing so it has shown how people even worship mother mary.
And I have come to the lesson that there are still people who will take anything as God and they will argue in favor of it, with their life. How delusional! If you were from hindu background, you would definitely argue with your life about the snake god. This is how people think. intriguing , isnt it?
Speaking as a former born-again Evangelical Christian who wholeheartedly believed in the Bible, the Trinity and the deity of Jesus, I find that the Quran’s understanding of Jesus, Mary and the Trinity to be absolutely spot on.
The Quran gives us a stunning laser-like critique of the central Christian errors concerning Jesus, his mother and the Trinity.
The voice of God speaks very clearly…
totally agree with you brother paul williams
dear brother john
i am not able to understand where you have refuted me. actually i have refuted you so many times and have already explained you so many times what the verses means.but you will twist the meaning,juxtapose the verses so as to come to your conclusions.
i am ready to accept quran is wrong but please show may where does quran say that marry is part of trinity not by showing verse 116 where she is refered to as godthe interpretation of verse is exalting her status to the level of god and refers to maryology sect also
verse 73 deals with trinity.
quran says that intercession is haram if majority of sunnis donot follow the custom,then no one show follow evangelism because majority of christians are catholics.sorry silly arguement no offence.
the reason you are defending intercession done by certain muslims so as to debunk the explanation that exalting in islam to more than what one deserves is infact considered as making the person divine and as a result debunking your quartenity theory.meanwhile the verse 116 acts as an admonishment for not exalting the status of human beings
i already totally of hadith in this regard but you still refuse
i want you to debate zakir naik because you said that he is breakfast for christian debaters in your place so why not then destroy the person who is such a pain for so many christian missionaries worlwide.
word WE used in quran is majestic we and not what you are refering to e.g king says to his queen ”we are not enjoying with you tonight”. does this mean whole kingdom ?haha haha.
brother john you are agreeing with us there is no trinity in bible
Hashim: “brother john you are agreeing with us there is no trinity in bible”
RJ: Not even in Bible, Nicene Creed&Constantinople creed also don’t have this term, but that won’t change the Oneness of Father,Son and Holy Spirit which being described through out the whole bible. It just a theological term my friend just like tauhid rububiyah & uluhiyah. So are you saying every islamic terminology or any islamic law that’ are not written in quran is wrong? please kindly tell me if u may….
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Hashim : “quran says that intercession is haram if majority of sunnis donot follow the custom,then no one show follow evangelism because majority of christians are catholics.sorry silly arguement no offence.”
RJ: So again you admit your view is only a minority view in world of Ahlul Sunnah & more than that speaking of total islamic circle(Sunni&Shiite) surely your Salafist view would be more isolated and extremely sectarian. So it would be fair isn’t it , to acknowledge you a narrow-minded person in Islam, agree ?
And your narrowness just become clearer my friend, as FYI evangelical is not a term that exclusive to one side of Christianity but in fact interdenominational in nature ,even Catholic also has its Evangelical branch. Frankly I’m quite amuse when u keep repeating make a joke out of yourself
Your silliness just astonishing brother , I have clearly explained to you that BY READING WHOLE SURAH 5, then its context undeniably tells us how Jesus& marry are being regarded as TWO GODS BESIDES ALLAH & how muhammad objected this by saying ALLAH IS NOT ONE OF THREE. Definitely these verse’s talking about THREE GODS(Allah,Jesus&Mary) it’s pure silliness when you keep on denying this obvious fact.
The same PURE SILLINESS that you’ve been keep manifesting as you asked me to arrange forum with 1000 attendance and having a debate with Zakir Naik…Seriously? OMG…Thank you for make me laugh brother! Bless you
Sorry for any inconvenient , but it’s so funny my friend….
Peace
root word of tauheed is ‘ahad’ mentioned in quran.neither is trinity mentioned in bible neither it has any root words.by asking such questions i am coming to conclusion that your knowledge of quran is shallow
may be your missionary teacher had no knowledge himself
Hashim : “word WE used in quran is majestic we and not what you are refering to e.g king says to his queen ”we are not enjoying with you tonight”. does this mean whole kingdom ?”
RJ: Can you give any recorded statement that such a comment ever being spoken? or is it just your imagination?
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If a root of a word exist in a quran doesn’t necessarily mean that the word itself presented clearly in quran
Tauhid means “Unified/United”
By this do you agree that allah is A UNIFIED /UNITED SUBSTANCE then? and every ime allah mentions himself as al-Ahad he describe himself as UNITED SUBSTANCE? please if u kindly would explain…
Peace of Jesus Christ be upon you brother
Hello David,Peace be upon you In Isa Al-Masih
Why widening the main matter of our discussion, bro?
David : “But have you ever heard of the word analogy? If you have heard , then why do you have such hard time to understand that I was drawing an analogy to show you how superficial and vague and at the same time illogical is the idea of trinity. ”
RJ: The problem is, in reference to “muhammad or allah error in describing trinity”, your analogy (though sounds good) is not making any clear relevancy at all, bro! Please next time make analogy that clearly describe the point which is truly relevant with main idea of our discussion which is error in quran in describing trinity.
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David:”How delusional! If you were from hindu background, you would definitely argue with your life about the snake god. This is how people think. intriguing , isnt it?”
RJ: Intriguing indeed in how you view about another faith but forgot to introspect your own invalid belief my friend
, It is pure silliness to believe in A Concept called Allah, since muslim describe this concept of allah as incomparable by anything yet oddly comparable in simplest way (eg Allah sees but A pig also sees, Allah has leg but a dog also has leg) even more muslims define allah as Dhat but yet again many things can be called as “Dhat” so it certainly nullified the idea that allah is incomparable and more over than that such pure intellectual decline when in reality not even one single word in quran defines Allah as DHAT(arabic),but the notion which describe Allah as Dhat being preach over and over again in ALL Islamic world! 
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Surely u ought to aware that we are talking about how Muhamad&allah has misunderstood christianity when through quran muhammad assume jesus&mary as TWO GODS BESIDES ALLAH.(Sura 5:116) This error is irrefutable cause muslim would be facing two options( dilemmas precisely):
A). Muslims have to admit that the intention of this verse was to describe Mary as part of Trinity
OR
B) Muslims have to admit that muhamad believe that christian worship the 4th Hypostasis besides the Trinity which mean Quaternity.
For the sake of Intellectual satisfaction EVEN if I put myself in Tritheism view, STILL Muhammad error is irrefutable cause: Even if Father,Son&Holy Spirit is Different THREE GODS however Mary has to replace or at least becoming Holy Spirit in order for muhamad “frame” could be proven , OR the other option Mary has to become the fourth God ( Quaternity).
Of course these are totally absurd coz nowhere in bible defines Mary as Fourth God nor regard her as Holy Spirit
Even if I put myself in Unitarianist position, muhammad or allah’s error STILL IRREFUTABLE, since it would give notion God,Jesus&Mary united as one in a “weird” way.
The only excuse that always come up is: this verse describe how muhammad criticizing a “minority sect of christianity”, sadly this is also a dilemma itself to those who uphold this idea. Coz how can muhamad care to criticize a minor sect that worshiping Mary (in which this sect itself hardly mentioned in Church history& even from the small record that can be obtained we don’t even know in what way they worshiped mary as god) Yet neglecting the major crucial issue on objecting Holy Spirit Divinity. Coz not even once in quran Allah nor Muhamad has any courage daring to object Holy Spirit divinity. Strange isn’t it?
By inserting mary as part of christian concept of God, It’s just like objecting that if Queen’s picture being printed in present US Dollar then that dollar would be fake, OF COURSE IT WOULD !
This shows how allah or muhammad has proven to be a bad communicator that had failed to communicate what they intend to delivered .But other way to see this verse is we can see How muhamad ridiculing himself in his attempt to frame christianity that he would just throw any accusation he could think of without had any real idea on what he really taking about
So one away or another muhammad blatant error still irrefutable, brother
Peace In Jesus Christ Wasalam…
dear brother john,
how many times are you bringing these silly arguements when they are doomed to fail.these arguements have been answered again and again and still you bring these long and silly arguements
ok you keep thinking this way only but we have refuted you.
i think i gave you a good example now please accept it there is nothing wrong in accepting truth.even you i can tell you urdu example.’hum aap se pyar karte hain
example of majestic we
dear brother john,
why are you changing the topic,you had asked about word tauhid in quran i told you the answer
the wor tawheed is derived from wah-hada which means to make someone singular and not united.where do you get these meanings from?may be from your holy spirit sorry if i have hurt you
dear brother john,
In several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.
a. In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We’ instead of ‘I’. This is known as the ‘royal plural’.
b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi “Hum dekhna chahte hain”. “We want to see.” ‘Hum’ means ‘We’ which is again a royal plural in Hindi.
c. Similarly in Arabic, when Allah refers to Himself in the Qur’an, He often uses Arabic word ‘Nahnu’ meaning ‘We’. It does not indicate plural of number but plural of respect.
Peace &Blessing to Hashim In The name of Jesus Christ
For this plural majestic stuff, I think u’ve got it clearly wrong when I asked you for example,
coz I specificaaly asked for example when this plural majestic is not being used ‘officially’ as your example king&queen in bedtalk
As quote “word WE used in quran is majestic we and not what you are refering to e.g king says to his queen ”we are not enjoying with you tonight”.
The example that u gave me seems to be official statement , please give me clear example my friend
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I fully understand that both of us are not native english speaker but can you carefully examine your own statement concerning tauhid? you said ,”the wor tawheed is derived from wah-hada which means to make someone singular ”
Logically speaking one can’t make someone singular unless it is not singular, agree.?
again I ask you to ponder
If someone already singular would it be rational TO MAKE HIM SINGULAR? it is like saying
One atom would need to be more “one” than before.. This is ridiculous
U may search on internet & google arabic letter for tawhid and it would be translated as “UNIFICATION”, one example from islamic site as quote ***Literally Tawheed means “unification” (making something one) or “asserting oneness”, and it comes from the Arabic verb (wahhada) which itself means to unite, unify or consolidate**** (http://www.allaahuakbar.net/aqeedah/categories_of_tawheed.htm)
so again I ask u are you agree that Allah is A UNIFIED ENTITY?
Thank you
(P.S Btw no heart feeling brother, if u mock me &insult me I still pray that Lord Jesus will truly bless you&your family ,& you may be saved brother ..Peace)
“Btw no heart feeling brother, if u mock me &insult me I still pray that Lord Jesus will truly bless you&your family ,& you may be saved brother ..Peace)”
RJ,
May I suggest you practice what you preach and cease mocking and insulting other people? Otherwise people will just conclude that you are a hypocrite, and you wouldn’t want that would you?
hello dear regular john(Emoticons),
Hope that you are in your finest health and mental condition.
Now, lets start with the crux of the matter which is related to trinity. You accuse the Quran of having an error. Its the starting point of the debate. It sounds very logical to a christian who will be jubilant to find out any error in the Quran.
However, dont forget that I asked you to show me verse which describes trinity or the triune god. You have shown us the verse which everyone can see. But as matter of bad luck for people like you that this verse doesnt not talk about trinity.
Matthew 28:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Does this verse say that there are three Gods in one?
Not only that, this verse is in stark contradiction with the following verses:
Matt. 10:5 “Go not into the way of the Gentiles”
Matt. 15:24 “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Now, you say Quran is wrong! Quran is wrong!! Quran is wrong!!! it doesnt describe trinity properly!!!! why whining?? I asked you simply to show that on the basis of what argument the Quran is wrong. We have seen that the bible itself does not describe the thing you describe. However, its true that the modern day christian believe the trinity to be father, the son and the holy ghost. But the bible doesnt say so. As the bible doesnt describe trinity , you dont have any authority to accuse the Quran. Besides, there are people who believe mother Mary’s divinity.
When its proven that the very idea of trinity is nonexistent in the bible and it doesnt have a base and its the result of some people fictitious mind and people in different ages had different ideas, you or in this case anybody should even never approach to accuse the Quran of any error. I have also shown you that the verse you have shown us is in contradiction with another verse. Which one is true, you can choose. Whatever you choose will prove the bible is not in its original state, so is the case with the belief in trinity. There is no point in arguing that the Quran is wrong, when you dont have even a case against it in your own bible….
Cheers.
Hello David
Peace be upon you in Jesus Christ
I see you can’t denied nor refuted my arguments and the atheist argument in Television show above that commenting on contradiction of quran concerning error in quran in regarding Mary as the other Gods beside Allah&Jesus.
We are still talking about the television show right? if you did notice,surely u should know that I just commenting what the atheist side say about this particular matter. Why you suddenly eager to change the topic to Trinity?and why you think that I was whining, why can you say the same with those one at the show who also arguing this matter? Isn’t it clear that the one who really2 whining is you yourself? If can’t accept any critics please don’t whining by accuse those criticizers as whiners especially since your criticizer (like me) has been staying on main topic while you obviously want to divert it out of topic.
But still I will educate you a bit;
David said: “When its proven that the very idea of trinity is nonexistent in the bible and it doesnt have a base and its the result of some people fictitious mind and people in different ages had different ideas, you or in this case anybody should even never approach to accuse the Quran of any error I have also shown you that the verse you have shown us is in contradiction with another verse.”.
RJ: Now again I advice you to examine your own words. I previously gave you Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
But your argument was not about “objecting the content” instead you argue about the authenticity of the verse, this clearly shows your desperation my friend
, cause you realize u can’t in anyway refute me if those verse were not being “framed” as inauthentic, isn’t it pathetic for you brother David? 
More than that your attempt by relating this Trinity verse with verse about Jesus being sent to Israelite only was quite lame bro! it shows that instead of objecting the content of Mat 28:19 about Trinity, but you just bringing up how different it seemed Jesus statement about spreading the gospel to Israelite only with His later statement to preach to all nations.
If you really spend your time in sincerely reading the bible rather than acting as fault finder, you should realize about progressive / gradual revelation which EVEN your own quran also practicing it though in more “extreme way” in so called “abrogation”. You certainly should be mature in your thinking that objecting differences from later revelation toward former in bible can be called double standard hypocrisy if u can’t judge quran in the same way
FYI those verse also can be interpreted that Jesus came to Israelitize the world as Mr.Paul (not Williams) said in Roman 2:28-29 ; A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God
and Romans 9:6 ,It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Galatians 6:16, Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
Lastly, Frankly do you honestly can refute my rational conclusion basis on my observation on television show above about quranic error in stating Mary as God, without trying to get this discussion out of topic? ..
Peace & Blessing be upon you in Isa Al-Masih
brother john,
brother go to some islamic scholar and they will tell you what the meaning of tauheed is.let me tell you it is actually what i told you.
i have already told you that we is used as majestic pure in semetic languages and not singular plural god
i and brother david have come with the explanations so many times and you will still bring your silly arguements
i am unable to understand your comment on ‘singular’.please make it clearer so i can comment.
Peace In Jesus Christ may be upon you Hashim
Sorry brother, I just ask you a very simple question based on literal meaning of arabic word Tauheed
Your statement itself had shown that tauheed means TO MAKE SINGULAR
and that’s exactly what I want to point out! The Logic is How can you make a singular entity to become singular? it won’t make any sense, the answer obviously
“someone want to make particular entity as singular because basically this particular entity is not singular”… can you digest this plain&simple reasonable logic?
Most of all the appropriate literal interpretation of Tauheed is Unification as quoted from this islamic site ****Islam believes in ‘Tawheed’ which is not merely monotheism i.e. belief in one God, but much more. Tawheed literally means ‘unification’ i.e. ‘asserting oneness’ and is derived from the Arabic verb ‘Wahhada’ which means to unite, unify or consolidate.(http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/conceptofGod.htm)****
And since you said Tauheed also being represented in word wahad in quran, so again I ask you do you agree that Allah is a Unified Entity ? Please keep the consistency shall we?
Peace In Isa al-Masih
RJ
Peace be upon you In Jesus Christ
Dr.Mustafa;
I would again sum up that you may understand your own contradiction :
1. Dr.Mustafa previously commented “God is not having any end but man is having an end so how can you have no end and an end at the same time….Man will die and then will be raised for reward or punishment by god so man is not eternal because he will die first before the eternal life but god cannot die””
RJ: I have just reminded him that even Islam admit man will live without no end, but you still childishly insist that Islam never said that and relating it with all men will die. Of course all men will die, but it’s just their physic & not spiritual, again I want to bring you this problem:
DO U BELIEVE MAN WILL TOTALLY BEING ANNIHILATE (SPIRITUALLY &PHYSICALLY) WHEN DIED, IF SO HOW CAN HE STILL BE “ALIVE” & COMMUNICATING IN GRAVE WITH ANGEL OF DEATH, THEN?
And please don’t hide your incapability to debate by throwing ad hominem mockery such as :dumb; mindless idiot, etc., have your mother ever teach you any manner? please behave properly doctor! coz your mockery won’t in anyway save you from being exposed
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2. Dr.mustafa said: “Iam not a all insisting on heretical idea .Iam very clear that believing Jesus as 100% god and 100% man the same time is contradictory and i have given enough proofs to show this is indeed contradictory.”
RJ: My condolence for u doctor, have u ever read my explanation in clear mind& non prejudice heart? I’ve already stated something incomprehensible doesn’t necessarily making it contradictory
For instance in TILL NOW YOU KEEP ON REFUSING TO CONDEMNED AS SHIRK THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIM (ASHARI&MATURIDI) THAT BELIEVE SPEECH OF QURAN AS BOTH UNCREATED &CREATED, why are you so double standard doctor ?Pathetically your own doctrine of quran in fact can be considered as “minority view”
Another example: How God as Timeless entity co-mingled with time. Surely God is beyond &above time so He shouldn’t have a Past, coz if he had then He can be considered “bound/restricted” by his creation (time). But when God interact with his creation, as He speaks or acts it seems He sort of bounded by time cause logically if God speak then obviously it would create a state of God not speaking and state where God is speaking. State of God not speaking can be looked as PAST, but we all know that God don’t have a past coz He is Timeless entity. To really determine how God act in time while keeping his Timeless Nature is incomprehensible to be determined by human mind, but again it’s not necessarily to define this incomprehensibility as contradictory.
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3. Dr.Mustafa : “Again,God limiting his ability (like not showing his mercy to some) will not make him devoid of having that ability, still God will be having it ,but man on the other hand will have limit on his capabilities no matter how much he has it .So how can one be having limitless ability and having limited ability at the same time so 100% god and 100% man together is contradiction”
RJ :Can you take a minute to ponder on your own answers? I’ve already said Incarnation was not Mutual Absorption between God&Man , but you just blindly accusing us as if God annihilate His ability when becoming man. Apparently also u still blindly neglected the Temple Principal (John 2:21)
In OT Israelite regard theTemple as point of worship (Qibla)
In NT we christian regard Jesus Christ as Perfect Living Temple & point of worship
In OT God dwell in Temple without God becoming The temple vice versa
In NT God dwell perfectly &Eternally in Christ Humanity without His Humanity becoming God vice versa
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4.Dr.Mustafa said : “.I only said god himself is not dwelling in the cloud and even both Jewish and christian commentators accept this…..Before commenting read first what iam saying understand it then comment .You don’t even seem to understand this simple thing but is repeating your nonsense”
RJ: Unfortunately for you I’m also taking reference from your references (Mathew Henry &John Gill)
-Mathew Henry said ” In all believers God the Father dwells, as in his holy temple, by his Spirit and special grace. (http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=4&com=mhc)
this is an affirmative statement which notify us God dwell in Temple as in 1 Kings 8:10-12 BY HIS SPIRIT
From reading IN CONTEXT definitely Mathew Henry was speaking of Holy Spirit when he talked about Divine Glory that dwell within the Temple
-John Gill said,”in allusion to Solomon’s temple; which as it was a type of the natural, so of the mystical body of Christ. There is an agreement between that and the church of Christ, in its maker, matter, situation, magnificence, and holiness; and the church is said to be the temple of God, because it is of his building, and in which he dwells: what the apostle here says of the saints at Corinth, the Jewish doctors say of the Israelites (n), , “the temple of the Lord are ye”; and which being usually said of them in the apostle’s time, he may refer unto; and much better apply to the persons he does, of which the indwelling of the Spirit was the evidence:
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you: in particular members, as a spirit of regeneration, sanctification, faith, and adoption, and as the earnest and pledge of their future glory; in their ministers to fit and qualify them for their work, and carry them through it; and in the whole church, to bless the word and ordinances, for their growth, comfort, and establishment. This furnishes out a considerable proof of the deity and distinct personality of the Spirit, since this is mentioned as an evidence of the saints being the temple of God, which would not be one, if the Spirit was not God, who dwells therein; and since a temple is sacred to deity, and therefore if he dwells here as in a temple, he must dwell here as God; and since he is mentioned as distinct from God, whose Spirit he is, and dwelling, a personal action is ascribed to him, he must be a distinct divine person. “(http://gill.biblecommenter.com/1_corinthians/3.htm)
Please I humbly plea to sincere honesty in reading Mathew Henry&John Gill in WHOLE CONTEXT and not as you partially quoted before..thank u
not only that but your false claim that u base your view on biblical orthodoxy has been easily debunked since I’ve already present you the evidence of Shekinah in the cloud being regarded as Holy Spirit by Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm &(http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html)
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5 .In continuation from problem no.2, ln all do respect please be gentleman at least once, “doctor” , cause you yourself said ,”“These commentaries does not say God himself dwelt in the cloud IT IS JUST HIS PRESENCE”
So AGAIN I ASK YOU; HOW CAN THE PRESENCE OF AN ENTITY BE NOTICEABLE IN SOMETHING SUCH AS CLOUD BUT IN THE SAME TIME THIS ENTITY IS NOT PRESENT IN THAT CLOUD?”
Please don’t hide in dishonest way by twisting Matthew Henry&John Gill commentary, since I’ve already given you what their true opinion is about Holy Spirit God who truly dwell in the temple
You yourself after repeated intensive “interrogation” finally admit that Christian does regard the divine glory as holy spirit as quoted “The glory which is talked about here, i never said that this glory is holy spirit or he is not. Jews say no ,Christians say yes”
Please if u may kindly explain WHY YOU SAY CHRISTIANS SAY YES? what is the meaning of your sentence,sir?
And may I know as far as your observation , does ever majority of Christians not admit on Holy Spirit as God ?..please answer if u kindly would
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For An-Noor (allah as the light)
Thank you for your long reply ,but i see u kind of mix up Ibn Kathir interpretation by adding sentence such as” 186,000 miles/sc”
BTW from Ibn Kathir interpretation with no addition version I receive not one but couple of alternatives
a) It can interpreted that An-Noor can be interpreted literally as “LIGHT”
“(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) He is controlling their affairs and their stars and sun and moon.” As-Suddi said concerning the Ayah:(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) by His Light the heavens and earth are illuminated. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: “When the Messenger of Allah got up to pray at night, he would say: (O Allah, to You be praise, You are the Sustainer of heaven and earth and whoever is in them. To You be praise, You are the Light of the heavens and the earth and whoever is in them. ) It was narrated that Ibn Mas`ud said, “There is no night or day with your Lord; the Light of the Throne comes from the Light of His Face.”
b) It can be also be interpreted figuratively as knowledge
“(The parable of His Light) There are two views concerning the meaning of the pronoun (His). The first is that it refers to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, meaning that the parable of His guidance in the heart of the believer is
(Source : http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2423&Itemid=79)
Referring to explanation above, please tell me concerning Light of allah that Shining from His face , is it CREATED &ALIVE OR NOT?
Cause if This Glorious Light that shine is created then allah was Lord of Darkness in beginning, but If This Gloriuos in uncreated yet it tells us that Allah essence consist also with Non-Living substance.
Again if this Shinning Light is not literal then would it make allah also Lord of Darkness ?
P.s btw surely ought to know the word shine right? please find dictionary if you have any difficulties in finding the meaning of this word
Please if u would kindly explain Sir …
Peace In The Name of Isa al-Masih
R.J
It seems I can’t post my reply to Mr.Mustafa in http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/12/31/can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/, I hope this is just the system and not intentionally arranged
Peace
It seems I can’t post my reply to Mr.Mustafa in http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/12/31/can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/, I hope this is just the system and not intentionally arranged cause I’ve already post it again,but in top of the post it says “Waiting for Moderation” I hope freedom of speech& right to reply still being honored in this forum.
I humbly suggest that this kind of restriction instead should be applied to any vulgar remarks rather than “banning” a descent rational response…thank you Peace
brother john,
your comments donot have head nor tail.i will suggest you please type the word tawheed on google and you will get meaning of this word.rather than a some website or go get to some arabic dictionaries.
to make something singular means opposite of plural like two,three.and not what you are refering
for the sake of arguement i agree with you tawheed means uniited god what will it mean then…………………
@ Hashim
Brother Hashim please carefully read your own statement Of Course to make something singular will eventually be opposite to plural.
Do u notice what u’ve just commented? Again I ask u , what is the necessity on making something singular if this something had been already singular in the first place?
Tawheed means exactly as it is: UNIFICATION
And it’s your own dilemma actually if you want to apply this term to describe your allah, coz muhammad himself never use this term to describe allah.
Unified God would mean: God consist of elements that should be seen in Unity
This’s also my advice for you in seeing Trinity(Unity of Three Elements) my friend
Peace In Jesus Name
P.S I firmly say that my reference about true literal meaning of tauhid has been clearly enough ****Islam believes in ‘Tawheed’ which is not merely monotheism i.e. belief in one God, but much more. Tawheed literally means ‘unification’ i.e. ‘asserting oneness’ and is derived from the Arabic verb ‘Wahhada’ which means to unite, unify or consolidate.(http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/conceptofGod.htm)****
Even Google translation will also confirm Tauhid = Unification (http://translate.google.com/#ar|en|%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%AD%D9%8A%D8%AF)
Thx
dear brother john,
brother as i already told you tawheed means making someone singular.you said what is the need of making someone singular when he is already singular.
brother god is refered to as ‘ahad’ in quran meaning one and not some entity that is made singular
tawheed is derived form ‘wahadah’ or ‘ahad’ which are interchangeably terms if you know little bit of arabic
Hi Hashim,
Please wake up & don’t keep blinding yourself Hashim, i’ve already given u the link that says Tauheed means Unification/ Unity/To unite
****Islam believes in ‘Tawheed’ which is not merely monotheism i.e. belief in one God, but much more. Tawheed literally means ‘unification’ i.e. ‘asserting oneness’ and is derived from the Arabic verb ‘Wahhada’ which means to unite, unify or consolidate.(http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/conceptofGod.htm)****
Even Google translation will also confirm Tauhid = Unification (http://translate.google.com/#ar|en|%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%AD%D9%8A%D8%AF)
and more..
Sheikh Hamza Yusuf define this word as “UNITY” of God
http://sheikhhamza.com/transcript/Vision-of-Islam
Literally Tawheed means “unification” (making something one)http://www.allaahuakbar.net/aqeedah/categories_of_tawheed.htm
Again my Logic still stands, How can you “make something to be one if this something had already been one in the first place?” It is a clear contradiction ! If Muslims would follow the true literal meaning of tauheed then certainly they should admit that their God is basically A UNIFIED ENTITY.. plain&simple
Peace In Jesus Name…
RJ
brother i can only laugh
make that two of us bro
hello dear regular john,
Hope that you are in your finest form of health and mind,
Regular emoticons said: “I see you can’t denied nor refuted my arguments and the atheist argument in Television show above that commenting on contradiction of quran concerning error in quran in regarding Mary as the other Gods beside Allah&Jesus.
We are still talking about the television show right if you did notice,surely u should know that I just commenting what the atheist side say about this particular matter. Why you suddenly eager to change the topic to Trinity?”
I cannot deny your argument or refute? Do you have any argument?!Have you heard people living in denial my dear brother. If you have not, do some study what does it mean to find out that you are living in denial.
You and your atheist friend of that video are so wrong in raising the issue that the Quran is wrong that the Muslims will laugh at you, and your sheer inability to even understand some simple truth.
It is clear like daylight that there is no clear concept of trinity in bible and therefore any accusation from any biblical source against the Quran is a faulty one and should not be entertained.
It also makes thing clear that the atheist of that video is a simple moron who did not know what he was talking about.
Its like demanding an answer from a person by asking whether or not his brother is released from the jail. (When the fact is that his brother was never in jail). Have you got it or are you simply unable to get it? Ponder…
The bottom line is that there is no trinity is Bible and there is no error in the Quran. Period. The Quran talks about contemporary beliefs of some people and at the same time shows how derailed christianity from the real teaching…
Hello David Peace& Blessing In Jesus Name
David said :It also makes thing clear that the atheist of that video is a simple moron who did not know what he was talking about.
RJ: Wow…what’s with this harshness ? A sign of desperation perhaps? just take an easy bro, If you’re truly in the right path there’s no need to loose your temper right ?
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David said : “You and your atheist friend of that video are so wrong in raising the issue that the Quran is wrong that the Muslims will laugh at you, and your sheer inability to even understand some simple truth”
RJ: If it’s wrong why can you unable to refute it and keep diverting the isssue into problem of Trinity in Bible?
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David said : “It is clear like daylight that there is no clear concept of trinity in bible and therefore any accusation from any biblical source against the Quran is a faulty one and should not be entertained.”
RJ: Father ,Son and Holy Spirit is quite clear from me though, by the way Three Gods Islamic version (God,Jesus and Mary) is quite weird if I might say. Finally there can only be two scenarios here, either Mary replacing Holy Spirit or christianity had turned itself to believe in Quaternity. Both scenario is absurd , that’s why it proofs how absurd quran is
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David said: Have you heard people living in denial my dear brother
RJ: Actually I’m debating one right now in this post
Peace In The Name of Our Messiah Isa Al-Masih
8-)
David said :It also makes thing clear that the atheist of that video is a simple moron who did not know what he was talking about.
Regular Emoticons: Wow…what’s with this harshness ? A sign of desperation perhaps? just take an easy bro, If you’re truly in the right path there’s no need to loose your temper right ?
David says:——- I aint losing my temper my dear friend. I am just letting you know that there are people around who comment without even knowing what they are talking about. The atheist in the video is obviously of your kind, at least in thinking. There is no doubt on that, Should I need utter these words more clearly and loudly? There is no unified concept of trinity in Bible and therefore, you simply cant argue against the Quran. If anybody does, he is just carrying on his moronic nature. So, you can deduce that the atheist in the video is a moron as he knows neither side of the story completely. If he knows then he is hypocrite because he is knowing twisting the information.
David said : “You and your atheist friend of that video are so wrong in raising the issue that the Quran is wrong that the Muslims will laugh at you, and your sheer inability to even understand some simple truth”
Regular emoticons: If it’s wrong why can you unable to refute it and keep diverting the isssue into problem of Trinity in Bible?
David says:——– LOL. Its wrong. Its as clear as daylight. There is no trinity in Bible. So how come you accuse The Quran.
. I prove that your brother has never been in jail. What I prove can you understand.? I prove the question is wrong. Have you got the message. The question is wrong.
Refuting what?
Your brother has been released from the jail.
Saying the Quran is wrong on trinity is severely wrong question asked by morons. I prove that the question is wrong. The Question itself is illogical. So, you are refuted , big time.
Regular emotocons: Father ,Son and Holy Spirit is quite clear from me though, by the way Three Gods Islamic version (God,Jesus and Mary) is quite weird if I might say. Finally there can only be two scenarios here, either Mary replacing Holy Spirit or christianity had turned itself to believe in Quaternity. Both scenario is absurd , that’s why it proofs how absurd quran is
The father , the son and the Holy spirit. Are they three gods? No, dont delude yourself. Bible doesnt say so. If you delude yourself in thinking that they are three gods, who can save you! Isnt Mary regarded as the god mother? Nothing replacing nothing. Again, who told you the holy ghost is part of God? Who ! Tell me who? The Bible? if not, then dont quote your wildest dream shared by some crazy christians…. Again have you got what I am trying to say? I have no grudge against you. What I am simply trying to say is that The bible never says that there are three gods and the holy ghost is a part of this truine absurdity. I have absolutely no problem in taking the fact that many christians do believe the holy ghost to be a part of the truine absurdity. However, dont forget that christians have different beliefs. So, whom would i trust? I look at Bible. I see no trinity. So, your accusation is wrong. Period.
Cheers.