Debates

Freedom of Speech or Right to Insult? Keele University, UK

As promised, here is the video of the big panel debate on Freedom of Speech held at Keele University (UK) on 23rd October 2012. Enjoy the discussion and pay attention to the the arguments used, as Inshallah these may inform your own discussions on the matter.

I argued that freedom of speech should be for the pursuit of truth, not insult. Pay attention to the Atheist speaker next to me throughout the debate – she begins to see my point of view, and starts to change her own opinion on the subject. Ironically, it is the Christians on the panel that try to put up a big fight for the position of permitting gratuitous insult.

However, also pay attention to the many Atheists in the audience, who then take it upon themselves to attempt to tackle my arguments themselves (which is good, as it ended up strengthening my position through me giving further explanation).

All in all, a very productive debate.

Categories: Debates, MDI UK

12 replies »

    • Quran does not have hate speech against Jews and Christians , it tells them where they go wrong and applauds them on their good deeds.

      Read the Quran and check it for yourself .

      • You are a Christian I assume,and I have read some of the Quran.Even if you’re not a Christian that book curses Christians and Jews in a general sense,as they say,not just then but for centuries to come.Read sura 5:14 and sura 5:64.That will change your mind.

        As for free speech I am for the freedom of denying the Holocaust,it’s ridiculous to ban it.In France they passed a law against denying the Armenian genocide,that was dumb.But I am for bans on racist remarks,it has to do with living human beings,not with long-ago historical events.

  1. I appreciate what Abdullah said about the distinction between intellectual argument and disagreement vs. intent to insult and gratuitous nasty words that seem obvious that they are meant to hurt the feelings of Muslims, etc. Most Evangelical Christians agree with that in principle that we should be allowed to disagree and present intellectual and Scriptural arguments and preach, witness, discuss, etc. without laws against freedom of religion and freedom of speech. The problem comes when trying to restrict speech – it is hard to know where the line is sometimes.

    Abdullah mentioned the Najran delegation and has mentioned before some of the intellectual debates of Nestorian Bishop Timothy vs. Caliph Al Mahdi and John of Damascus and Al Kindy, etc. Nestorian Biship Mar Timothy (in office 780-823) debated with the Caliph Al-Mahdi (775-785).

    -Also John of Damascus (675-679 AD) debated on the titles of ‘Word’, ‘Spirit’ (Q4:171), the trinity, and divinity of Jesus.

    Those are good examples, but they are in very early Islam; today that is not very common. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other Muslim countries are not known for their openness to intellectual debates or even allowing Muslims to question their religion.

    Adbullah’s point works well in England, but can he go to Saudi Arabia and argue that they should allow intellectual debate there with Christians?

    But there is also the rules of Dhimmi-tude of Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz ( 717 AD) and the eventual position of most of the Muslim world that Christians really have no right to evangelize or debate with Muslims. Islamic law says that if a Muslim turns from Islam, kill him. (Al Bukhari
    9:84:57)

    The Qur’an seems to insult the Jews and people of the book: – changing some Jews into apes and pigs and calling some “the worst of creatures”. Is that intellectual argument or insulting?

    And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.” Surah 2:66

    Say: “Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!” Surah 5:60

    When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.” Surah 7:166

    “Verily those who believe not, among those who have received the scriptures, and among the idolaters, [shall be cast] into the fire of hell, to remain therein [for ever]. These are the worst of creatures.” – Qur’an Surah 98:6

    It seems easy enough for sincere Muslims to argue for intellectual debate in the west; but it does not seem to be allowed in most of the Muslim world. The debates in Dubai in recently years are great (Thabiti Anyabwile vs. Bassam Zawadi) ; but that seems to be an exception in the Muslim world of today.

    How do we know and trust that those principles would be followed, if and when Islam gets a majority in an area?

    There are already enclaves in France and other places where the Muslim majority has enacted Sharia principles, and the police won’t go because the extremists are in control.

    • The Quran does not insult Jews and Christians , as i posted earlier just read the Quran .

      The verses which you have quoted clearly shows that you have not read the Quran and is just copying the verses without its proper context from some ignorant sites on Islam and pasting here.

      Let us see those verses

      1 ) SURA 2:66

      The context starts in verse 63 and continues upto verse 66

      verse 63
      “And [recall] when We took your covenant, [O Children of Israel, to abide by the Torah] and We raised over you the mount, [saying], “Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that perhaps you may become righteous.”

      God clearly says he has taken a covenant from Israel and asking them to hold it firmly .In verse 64 he says Israel turned back from the covenant but still God forgave them.

      “Then you turned away after that. And if not for the favor of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have been among the losers.”

      Then in verse 66 God says Jews knew that those who broke the Sabbath were said by God to be apes and swine . This verse is telling that those who broke the covenant and Sabbath God made them to behave like animals .

      Where is the antisemitism in this verse ?

      The Bible itself says this about Sabbath breakers

      Exodus 31:14

      “Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.”

      Also see

      Exodus 31:15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

      Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

      Leviticus 16:29 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work–whether native-born or an alien living among you–

      Numbers 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.

      Numbers 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.”

      2) SURA 5:60

      This quote of yours reinforces that you have not read the verses you quote at all !!!

      The context starts from verse 59 .In this verse God says to ask the people of book why are believers being mocked just on believing in God and believing in revelations given to Jews and Christians ,then God says in verse 60 that those whom God cursed have transformed into apes and swine because they have broken the covenant of God and have sin and transgressed .

      3 ) SURA 7:166

      This verse is self explanatory in that they disregarded the warnings and transgressed all prohibitions so God punished them.

      4) Sura 98:6

      The verse under question (98:6) is referring to those who deliberately reject the Truth, and especially when the Messenger in present in them who brings them clear evidences. See verses 1 through 5 of this Surah.

      The name of this Surah is ‘al-Bayyinah’ which means ‘The Clear Evidence’. Both the People of the Book, to whom revelation had come in previous times, and the idolaters of Arabia, among whom no Prophet has appeared, were sunk so deep in immorality and sin that only a Divine Messenger could now free them from this bondage.

      ALL THE VERSES YOU QUOTED ARE YOUR MISREPRESENTATION OF THE ACTUAL MEANING OF THE VERSES .

      SO NEXT TIME PLEASE READ THE CONTEXT AND SEE THE REAL MEANING OF THE VERSES BEFORE COPYING AND PASTING THEM FROM SOME FOOLISH ANTI ISLAMIC WEBSITE.

      The verse which iam quoting below clears that God called worst of beast to those who rejected his signs despite clear evidence and to those broke the covenant which they took from God.

      Surah 60, Aayah 8

      Allah expressly commands Muslims to be kind and just towards non Muslims. Allah, the Exalted says,

      “Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.”

      These verses prove that the Quran is not hateful towards good non Muslims at all. But those who are bent on maligning Islam never focus on these verses.

      • Just read Jeremiah and see how prophets before Jesus used to say about Jews who used to broke the covenant of God .

        The verses from Quran you quoted are in the same tune .

  2. ANTISEMITISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

    The New Testament contains more than just a mild criticism of the Jews. In fact, it is extremely anti-Jewish. It is true that some Christians maintain that the New Testament attack on the Jews is quite mild. Yet, how mild is the “bloody commission,” a statement that places upon the Jews guilt for all the righteous blood ever shed upon the earth (Matthew 23:35),

    or a spurious self-condemnation whereby the Jewish people supposedly take upon themselves and their offspring an eternal blame for the death of Jesus (Matthew 27:25),

    or a declaration that the Jews are the children of the devil (John 8:44) and that the Jews are a “synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9).

    Paul summed up the denunciation of the Jews with the inflammatory declaration that the Jews are “hostile to all men” (1 Thessalonians 2:15).

    The New Testament was written by-and-large for Gentiles and institutionalized an anti-Judaic theme for its audience. It distorted and fictionalized events in order to portray the Jews, all Jews who do not accept Jesus, as evil and responsible for his death. The attitude of the New Testament authors toward the Jews is very clear.

  3. WHAT SCHOLARS SAY ABOUT THE ANTISEMITISM IN NEW TESTAMENT

    “New Testament contributed toward subsequent antisemitism in the Christian community”

    SOURCE
    J.G.Dunn. The Question of Anti-Semitism in the New Testament Writings of the Period. Jews and Christians: the parting of the ways, CE 70 to 135. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1999. Page 179.

    A. Roy Eckardt, a pioneer in the field of Jewish-Christian relations, asserted that the foundation of antisemitism and responsibility for the Holocaust lies ultimately in the New Testament.

    SOURCE
    In Memoriam: Professor A. Roy Eckardt Holocaust and Genocide Studies 1998 12(3):519

    According to Rabbi Michael J. Cook, Professor of Intertestamental and Early Christian Literature at the Hebrew Union College, there are ten themes in the New Testament that are the greatest sources of anxiety for Jews concerning Christian antisemitism.

    …The Jews are culpable for crucifying Jesus – as such they are guilty of decide

    …The tribulations of the Jewish people throughout history constitute God’s punishment of them for killing Jesus

    …Jesus originally came to preach only to the Jews, but when they rejected him, he abandoned them for gentiles instead

    …The Jewish Bible (the so-called “Old Testament”) repeatedly portrays the opaqueness and stubbornness of the Jewish people and their disloyalty to God.

    …The Jewish Bible contains many predictions of the coming of Jesus as the Messiah (or “Christ”), yet the Jews are blind to the meaning of their own Bible.

    …By the time of Jesus’ ministry, Judaism had ceased to be a living faith.
    Judaism’s essence is a restrictive and burdensome legalism.

    …Judaism’s oppressiveness reflects the disposition of Jesus’ opponents called “Pharisees” (predecessors of the “rabbis”), who in their teachings and behavior were hypocrites (see Woes of the Pharisees).

    SOURCE
    Michael Cook 2008 Modern Jews Engage the New Testament

    Professor Lillian C. Freudmann, author of Antisemitism in the New Testament (University Press of America, 1994) has published a study of such verses and the effects that they have had in the Christian community throughout history.

    New Testament scholar J.G. Dunn writes:
    “The Fourth Evangelist is still operating within a context of intra-Jewish factional dispute, although the boundaries and definitions themselves are part of that dispute. It is clear beyond doubt that once the Fourth Gospel is removed from that context, and the constraints of that context, it was all too easily read as an anti-Jewish polemic and became a tool of anti-semitism. But it is highly questionable whether the Fourth Evangelist himself can fairly be indicted for either anti-Judaism or anti-semitism.

    SOURCE
    J.G.Dunn. The Question of Anti-Semitism in the New Testament Writings of the Period. Jews and Christians: the parting of the ways, CE 70 to 135. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1999. Page 209.

    VERSES WHICH OUT RIGHTLY SPEAK FOUL ABOUT JEWS

    Matthew 23:31-33

    “you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets…You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell?”

    Matthew 8.12

    “The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

    “He that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16.16)

    “Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8.43-47)

    “Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Acts 7.51-53)

    “It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13.45-51)

    “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake … wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” (Titus 1.10-14).

    “The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)

    “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son. Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father” (l John 2.22,23)

    “I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan …” (Revelation 2.9,10)

    “Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not but do lie; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet…” (Revelation 3.9)

    Moses Bazes, author of “Jesus the Jew, the Historical Jesus,” after examining the anti-Semitic statements in the New Testament writes:

    “I believe that because of the anti-Jewish narratives of the New Testament, the Jews were hounded from one country to another, denied to live as human beings, denied to work as other people worked, denied to play as others played, were in no country at peace, in no era at peace and finally persecuted and massacred. This was all because of the Christian bigotry and hatred in the name of Jesus. Obviously it cannot be possible to regard Jesus as none other than the scourge of God for the Jews. The tragic existence of the Jews during 1900 years in the Diaspora, the hatred they experienced, the pogroms, persecutions, murders and the destructions they suffered, must be mainly attributed to anti- Jewish statements in the New Testament. Christianity introduced contempt for the Jew and is thus responsible for what happened in the Second World War at the Dachau Concentration camp in Germany and at the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland. What was started at the Church Council at Nicea in 325 CE was duly completed in the concentration camps and crematories of Christian Germany where six million Jews perished.”

  4. CHRISTIAN SAINTS ON JEWS

    We will now examine the words of some Christian “saints” and leaders and notice how their anti-Jewish expressions are based on New Testament verses listed earlier in this article.

    Origen:

    “Their rejection of Jesus has resulted in their present calamity and exile. We say with confidence that they will never be restored to their former condition. For they have committed a crime of the most unhallowed kind, in conspiring against the saviour.”

    St. Gregory:

    “ Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies of God, haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers’ faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, leaven of the Pharisees, congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of goodness.”

    St. Jerome:

    “….serpents, haters of all men, their image is Judas … their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys..”

    St. John Chrysostom:

    “I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time… This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots … A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse. What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild animals … not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animal … When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced. By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. This is why Christ said: “ask for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them and slay them before me’ (Luke 19.27).”

    St. Augustine:

    “Judaism is a corruption. Indeed Judas is the image of the Jewish people. Their understanding of the Scriptures is carnal. They bear the guilt for the death of the saviour, for through their fathers they have killed the Christ.”

    St. Thomas Aquinas:

    “It would be licit to hold Jews, because of the crimes, in perpetual servitude, and therefore the princes may regard the possessions of Jews as belonging to the State.”

    Martin Luther:

    “Know, 0 adored Christ, and make no mistake, that aside from the Devil, you have no enemy more venomous, more desperate, more bitter, than a true Jew who truly seeks to be a Jew… a Jew, a Jewish heart, are hard as wood, as stone, as iron, as the Devil himself. In short, they are children of the Devil, condemned to the flames of hell.”

    “O Lord, I am too feeble to mock such devils. I would do so, but they are much stronger than I in raillery, and they have a God who is a past master in this art; He is called the devil and the wicked spirit.. They have transformed God into the devil, or rather into a servant of the Devil, accomplishing all the evil the Devil desires, corrupting unhappy souls , and raging against himself: in short, the Jews are worse than the devils.”

    “What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honour of God and of Christianity, in order that God may see that we are true Christians. Secondly, their homes should be likewise broken down and destroyed. Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayerbooks and talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught. Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threats of death to teach anymore.”

    “Now whoever wishes to accept venomous serpents, desperate enemies of the lord, and to honor them, to let himself be robbed, pillaged, corrupted and cursed by them, need only turn to the Jews. If this is not enough for him, he can do more: crawl up into their…… and worship the sanctuary, so as to glorify himself afterwards for having been merciful, for having fortified the Devil and his children, in order to blaspheme our beloved lord and the precious blood that has redeemed us. He will then be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy, for which Christ will reward him on the-day of judgment with the eternal fire of hell (where he will roast together with the Jews).”

    “In truth, the Jews, being foreigners, should possess nothing, and what they do possess should be ours.”

    “…Cursed goy that I am, I cannot understand how they manage to be so skillful, unless I think that when Judas Iscariot hanged himself, his guts burst and emptied. Perhaps the Jews sent their servants with plates of silver and pots of gold to gather up Judas’ piss with the other treasures, and then they ate and drank his offal, and thereby acquired eyes so piercing that they discover in the scriptures commentaries that neither Matthew nor Isaiah himself found there, not to mention the rest of us cursed goyim..”

    “If I find a Jew to baptize, I shall lead him to the Elbe bridge, hang a stone around his neck, and push him into the water, baptizing him with the name of Avraham!.. I cannot convert the Jews. Our lord Christ did not succeed in doing so; but I can close their mouths so that there will be nothing for them to do but to lie upon the ground.”

    “I hope I shall never be so stupid as to be circumcised; I would rather cut off the left breast of my Catherine and of all women.”

    “If we are to remain unsullied by the blasphemy of the Jews and not wish to take part in it, we must be separated from them and they must be driven out of their country.”

    These anti-semitic words uttered by popes, priests, pastors and laymen, were put into action by unruly Christian mobs and later by Hitler’s followers.

    Adolf Hitler: “I believe that I am today acting according to the purposes of the Almighty Creator. In resisting the Jew, I am fighting the Lord’s battle.”

    Now let us apply these sayings to deeds committed by Christians who took their New Testament literally.

    The crusader’s sword found its justification in the words of Matthew 10.34, “I have not come to bring peace on earth but a sword.” The Inquisitor’s fire found its justification in the words of John 15.6, “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” The cancellation of debts owed to Jews, found its justification in the parable recorded in Luke 16. The first blood libel was made by Jesus himself where in Matthew 23.35, he states “that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.”

    Rev William Hull

    At the time of the World Pentecostal Conference in Jerusalem in 1961, Hull, a Canadian Missionary, wrote two articles entitled “Christian Analysis of Current Events in Israel” for Christian News from Israel (published by the Ministry of Religious Affairs). In these he analyzed political, cultural and social developments in the country in the light of his unique method of interpretations. He also discussed the significance of the Eichmann Trial, which was then being held in Jerusalem. That subject had special interest for him, since at his request he had been appointed by the authorities as Eichmann’s confessor.

    Hull visited Eichmann in his cell 14 times, and tried to convert him to a belief in Jesus as the savior, so that he might atone for his actions. However, Hull’s efforts proved fruitless. Later he wrote a book describing those conversations with Eichmann, but the content of the talks and certain statements made by Hull subsequent to those talks, evoked a negative reaction in various Jewish circles. Criticism was directed mainly at the extreme Fundamentalist position, in accordance with which Hull had promised Eichmann that God would forgive his sins if in a written statement he would declare his acceptance of Christ. In Canada, Hull told the correspondent of a Toronto newspaper that the six million Jewish victims of the Nazis were doomed to perish in hell, and would not enter paradise, because they had not accepted the belief in Christ. Moreover, he said, Eichmann’s sins were not as great as those of the average man who denied Jesus as the redeemer. (From “American Fundamentalism and Israel” by Yona Malachy)

    German Christians under Hitler
    Paul Althaus, a Lutheran theologian of renown in Germany, warmly greeted the rise of Hitler. He wrote that, “The Protestant churches have greeted the political turning point as a gift and miracle of God”.. (“Die deutsche Stunde der Kirche,” p.5)

    Many times Althaus explained to Christians his preference for the Third Reich over the former Weimar Republic. “We Christians know,” he stated, “that we are bound by God’s will to the promotion of National Socialism, so that all members of the people will be ready for service and sacrifice.” (“Kirche and Staat,” p. 29)

    In a document signed by many Christian theologians it was stated, “We as believing Christians thank God our Father that he has given to our people in its time of need the Fuhrer as a pious and faithful sovereign, and that he wants to prepare for us in the National Socialist system of government, good rule, a government with discipline and honor. Accordingly, we know that we are responsible before God to assist the work of the Fuhrer in our calling and in our station in life.”. (“Ansbacher Ratschlag,” p. 145)

    Another high ranking Christian theologian, Leutheuser, believed that the Holy Spirit moves where it chooses, and stated that, “more spirit of religion has come to Germans through Hitler, than through many of the churches.” (Julius Leutheuser. “Die deutsche Christusgemeinde,” p. 18,19) This same Christian leader asserts that “Germany has been given a mission from God. The leader and prophet is Adolf Hitler.” (SiegfriedLeffer. “Christus im Drittem Reich der Deutschen,” p. 13-18)

    The Vatican under Pope Pius XII made a Concordat of collaboration with National Socialism. Hitler’s portrait was placed on all walls of Catholic churches and Sunday schools. Church bells were rang at every Nazi victory, including the arrest and transportation of the last Jew from every town in Germany. The Roman Catholic Church never protested against Hitler’s barbarism including the massacre of a million and a half Jewish children.. (Dictionary of Antisemitism, p. 43)

    At a Church conference, Hitler affirmed that the Catholic Church has always regarded Jews as evildoers and had banished them into ghettos. He (Hitler) is only doing what the Church had been doing for fifteen hundred years.. (ibid, p. 79)

    In fact the Catholic youth organisation of Germany was combined with the Hitler youth following the signing of the Concordat of Collaboration sponsored by Msgr. Pacelli later to become Pope Pius XII. Together they sang the Horstwessel Lied in the church vestries “Wenn das Judenblut vom Messer spritzed”.. (‘When Jewish blood runs off the dagger,’ ibid, p. 109)

    In a speech to Polish Catholics, Hitler declared: “I as a German Catholic, ask only what is permitted to Polish Catholics. To be antisemitic is not to be un-Catholic. The Church used every weapon against the Jews, even the Inquisition. Christ himself was a pioneer in the fight against Judaism.” (ibid, p. 146)

    An interesting quotation appears in the Encyclopedia Britannica under “German Christians:”

    “Protestants who attempted to subordinate church policy to the political exigencies of Nazi Germany. The German Christians’ Faith Movement, organized in 1932, was nationalistic and so anti-Semitic that extremists wished to repudiate the Old Testament and the Pauline Letters because of their Jewish authorship. In July 1933 the state territorial churches merged to form the German Evangelical Church, and in September the German Christian candidate, Ludwig Muller, became Reichsbishop. Muller’s efforts to make the church an instrument of Nazi policy were resisted by the Confessing Church, under the leadership of Martin Niemoller. After World War II the German Christian Church party was banned.”

    Are present day Christian attitudes towards the Jews any better? Liberals say they are, and they continue to call for tolerance and understanding. But the fundamentalists are hindering and harming the progress that has been made in Christian-Jewish relationships. By their desire to convert the Jew, they prove themselves to be the most anti-Semitic of all Christian groups, for the whole idea of conversion is anti-Semitic.

    Christian missionary love for the Jew is a kind of hatred. It loves the Jew, yet hates him for being what he is. It sees him as blind and in need of being changed into a believer. When missionary efforts failed, or are foiled, the love for the Jew quickly turns to hatred and contempt.

    We are not deceived by the ‘new Christians’ of today’s hand-clapping fundamentalists. They teach the same anti-Semitic doctrines as the church of yesteryear. Their tactics are different but we know that the message is the same. Any Jew who can pay homage to the New Testament or allow himself to believe in it, is, in my opinion in the same category as a Jew who tries to justify Hitler’s Mein Kampf or, as one who covers up for the deeds of the Nazis.

    More Jews have been affected, hurt or killed, in the name of Christ and his church during the last two thousand years than those massacred by the Nazis. Yet there are Jews, who being so alienated from their own people, have overlooked this fact and have joined themselves to the church with its built-in anti-Semitism.

    To imagine that this Jewish self curse and curse on their children (Matthew 27:25) was actually uttered by any group of Jews is a violation of respect for the human intellect and a travesty. Because of the depth and spread of this Christian belief – and the evil it has wrought – it is most necessary to refute and discredit Matthew 27:25 beyond any shadow of doubt.

    The Jewish child is the ‘hero’ of the Brith Milah (Circumcision): the Bar-Mitzvah and nowadays the Bat-Mitzvah (Confirmation of male and female children as Subjects of the Commandment); the Passover Seder (Feast of Mazot); and the Pidyon ha’Ben (Redemption of the First-born son)…

    There is scarcely a single religious rite of the Jew that is complete without the participation of the child. An entire chapter of the Holy Scriptures, “Proverbs,” is devoted to the proper upbringing of the Jewish child – its first seven chapters are addressed to “My Son”. Even after the Jew’s passing from his life the connection between parent and child is perpetuated through the son’s recital of the Kaddish prayer in memory of the departed parent. Thus, from birth to after death in a never-ending cycle, the Jew and his child are inseparable. It has always been so since Judaism began and it will always be so…

    As for the “Blood curse” (Matthew 27:25), oceans of ink have been expended by bible scholars Christian and Jewish – starting two centuries ago, to demonstrate that this self-curse and curse on the children of Israel could never have been uttered. Despite this, rivers of Jewish blood have been spilled by a blind and unbending fanaticism that persisted, and still persists, in perpetuating the fiction that the self-curse was actually voiced. Since the Catholic Church and fundamentalist Protestant sects consider every word in the New Testament to be the “Word of God,” Matthew 27:25 is a dogma of the church.

    They care because they know that Adolf Hitler’s mendacious claim: “I believe that I am today acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator; by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord…” has Matthew 27:25 at its base. (A. Hitler, MEIN KAMPF, pg. 65; cf. E.H. Flannery, op. cit. pg. 2 1 0).

    Harenberg continues: “It was Rudolf Bultmann who stated in 1921, with the help of the form critical method which he had developed, that this curse was never spoken” (c.f R. Bultrnann, History of the Synoptic Tradition, Harper, 1963, pg. 282).

    The French historian Charles Guignebert wrote in 1935 about Matthew 27:25 directly, and of other passages of the same ilk in the New Testament, as follows: “Few of the sayings of the Gospels have done more harm than these, and yet they are only the invention of a redactor”. (C. Guignebert, Jesus, op. cit., pg. 470) Hitler used Jesus’ name quite glibly to justify his unspeakable crimes.

    It was the evangelist Matthew, not a redactor, who “invented” verse 27:25, but no matter, the damage is the same regardless of who the ‘inventor’ really was. The pity of it is that all anti-Semitic monsters use (and have used) the “poison” that is found in Christianity’s Holy Book as propaganda to further their nefarious ends. Hitler was but one of many.A million of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust were children.

    • Wow,Jesus,you sure have read alot but come on,one thing is that the other Jesus,a Jew himself curses some Jews and another is him cursing them for as long as the earth lasts.Nowhere does it say that.People have hated the Jews for the misdeads of some Jews but if I remeber rightly,the other Jesus said “Love your neighbor like yourself”.Only a dummy like people in the past would miss that commandment of his.

  5. Jesus (Isa – عیسی )
    Thanks for overwhelming me with too much material to begin to answer. I asked a sincere question and Yes, I have read the Qur’an (at least once all the way through, and still refer to many passages when I need to review where some issue is, etc.)

    I agree with you about context and that is very important.

    Did Allah turn those Jews into literal monkeys and pigs or is it just metaphorical as to their behavior, that they started acting like monkeys and pigs?

    There is no Anti-semitism in the NT – Paul was a Jew, as was Matthew and John and Peter – people in history have abused the Bible and used it wrongly to justify their evil hearts (Mark 7:20-23; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9), but those verses are not speaking about racial hatred, etc.

    Just as you believe Allah condemned those disobedient Jews in those passages you explained, (and Allah then transformed them into apes and pigs); we believe that God judged the Jews of that generation for rejecting and crucifying the Messiah and God sovereignly allowed the Romans to come and destroy the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    This is also sincere – is there a website that shows the Qur’an and where the context changes? some kind of marker – sometimes it just jumps around every few verses to a different subject and sometimes there is some context and sometimes there is no context – we have to get most historical background from Hadith, Tafsirs, Sirat, and Tarikh.

    Again, I have read the Qur’an and some Hadith and Tafsirs and Sirat and Tarikh in order to better understand the context and historical background of Qur’an and Islam.

    Anyway, I may try to address some of your points later when I have time.

    I wish you true peace in the true Isa Al Massih عیسی المسیح

    John 14:27 – Jesus said, “Peace I give you; My peace do I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you; let not your heart be troubled and neither be afraid.”

    Matthew 11:28-30 – “come to Me all you who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest . . . take My yoke upon you and learn from Me . . . ”

    Isaiah 59:1 – your sins separate you from God

    Mark 7:20-23 – from within, from the heart of man, comes evil thoughts (Matthew 5:28 – lust; Matthew 5:22 – anger and hatred) – sexual immorality, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, slander, envy, greed, pride, foolishness – these evil thoughts within defile the person. (see Mark 7:1-23 for larger context)

    Mark 1:15 – repent and believe the gospel

    Romans 5:1 – Having been justified by faith in Jesus Christ, we have peace with God . . .

    Isaiah 48:22; 57:21; 66:24 (Mark 9:48) – “there is no peace for the wicked” and hell is “where the womb does not die and the fire is not quenched”.

    All our hearts are evil and wicked until God comes and changes the heart by repentance and faith in Christ alone to save.

    If you have no peace or assurance of salvation or assurance of going to heaven, turn to Christ as savior and Lord.

    “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the only unique Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13

    Do you know for sure that have eternal life and that you will go to heaven when you die?

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