Ahmadiyya

Debate Video: Are Ahmadiyya part of Islam?

Screen Shot 2013-12-25 at 18.19.35MDI is proud to present the video of the debate which took place Thursday 19th December 2013 in Toronto Canada, between our Canadian branch speaker Sadat Anwar (MDI Canada) and Ansar Raza (Ahmadi-Qadiani scholar) on the topic of whether Ahmadiyya are a part of Islam, or another breakaway religion like the Bahais.

81 replies »

  1. We need more debate like this.Brother Sadat did well and to the point. On contrary Ansar Raza was most of the time out of topic, gave irrelevant example and fail to clarify brother Sadat’s allegations.

    • Much of the allegations were outside the given topic. This is what one does when they fail to give arguments in support of his view.

      Since much of his allegations were outside the given topic, they became void and did not require a response. That itself was a sign of failure.

      THe crux of the debate was to provide evidence from Quran, Hadith and Sunnah that Ahmadis were non-Muslims or Kafir. Sadat Sahib failed to provide any. He only superficially looked like as if he had arguments in support of his views simply because he can express himself better in English. But every unbiased individual knows he had no arguments from Quran Hadith.

      On the other hand Raza Sahib used nothing but Quran, Hadith in support of his views.

      Quite interestingly Sadat Sahib tried to prove from Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaats literature that Ahmadis believe that non-Ahmadis are non-Muslims. But that has been refuted in the video and below in one of my comments, but here I’d like to point out the fallacy of this argument. If Ahmadis (God forbid) are false in their strong belief that the Messiah the world was waiting for has arrived, then their literature holds no weight. In particular, the non-Ahmadis still would have to prove that to believe in a false Prophet makes you a non-Muslim. Interestingly Sadat Sahib overlooked that. If however Ahmadis are right (which they are), then I have provided ample evidence below which refutes the misconception that non-Ahmadis are non-Muslims.

      So let’s turn to the obvious question, what proof do YOU have from the Quran and Hadith which prove that Ahmadis are non-Muslims?

      Sadat Sahib failed to provide. Can you?

      • Quran clearly states that Allah sends messengers to guide people. It is obligatory to follow them. MGAH was an imposter and so following him is denying the rights of Allah. From the Muslim point of view, it is very plain Ahmadis are not Muslims. But that does not mean Muslims should hate those who are unwittingly in it. They are brothers in humanity.

        • Yes following messengers/prophets may be obligatory. But that does not qualify us to target others and say that such and such is a non-Muslim. Not even the Pakistani parliament, or the Muslim league. You have not provided any explicit evidence which suggests that following a false Prophet (that is if Ahmadis are false) makes one a non-Muslim. Whereas I (and Ansar Raza sahib in the video above) have provided sufficient evidence that gives a criterion of who and who is not a Muslim. Not only that, the Hadith gives a WARNING to Muslims to avoid treading that path of takfirism and that of declaring others non-Muslims:

          “Whoever observes Prayer in the same way as we do, and declares our qibla to be his qibla; one who eats from our dhabiha [i.e., the meat of our slaughtered animals] such a one is a Muslim. To protect such a person is a matter of obligation for God and His Messenger. So,[O ye Muslims!] make sure that you do not violate the obligation from God.” (I believe Sahih Bukhari)

          so what proof do you have from the QURAN or HADITH which prove that Ahmadis are non-Muslims?

          • Your true attitude to Islam comes out through your words! You say, “Yes following messengers/prophets may be obligatory”. But we Muslims believe it IS obligatory – not ‘may be’. How can a Muslim think that ‘following a false Prophet (that is if Ahmadis are false) makes one a non-Muslim’. Are you serious in these arguments – or just doing missionary work? Muslims are commanded to obey their beloved Prophet, SAW. Our beloved prophet has warned us of dajjals to come. Muslims are commanded to turn to Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah,Peace and Blessings be upon him, and not to this or that impostor. For Muslims their Lord has completed His religion with the mission of this, His last messenger. Muslims do not need any further “prophets”

            • I said “may be” as a way of expression. Not that I don’t I consider the belief in all Prophets/Messengers to be obligatory. Besides, it doesn’t change my argument.

  2. Well done Br. Sadath. May Allah reward you. You were consistent throughout and stuck to the point. Ansar Saheb often fell into equivocation.

  3. I doubt Ansar Raza will ever debate Br. Sadat after this. Br. Sadat was clear, to the point and did not fall into usual trap of discussing Ansar Raza’s mute points irrelevant to the topic. In fact he clearly proved that according to Quadianis own so called nabi and Khalifa, main stream Muslims are not of the same faith but kafir. We’ll done bro, May Allah reword you. The simple reason Quadianis would define them as a sect of Islam and not different religion is because doing otherwise would create chaos among their followers and they would leave this false religion in droves. That would be an end to the Mirza family’s co-operative bank. Also, maintaining as a different sect and not different religion may attract main stream Muslims and add to Mirza family’s bank roll.

  4. whats so special about the ahmadiyya prophet, when compared to Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Its so so so far apart there is no comparison, there’s no reason to be an ahmadiya it’s BEYOND obvious that its false religion, unless you want to follow your forefathers and keep your foolish pride as the Quran mentions.

    Surah Baqarah verse 170-171: When it is said to them, “Follow the Commands that Allah has sent down”, they reply, “We will follow only what we found our forefathers practicing.” Well, will they go on following their forefathers even though they did not use common sense and did not find the Right Way! The mental condition of those who rejected the way of Allah may be likened to that of the cattle whom the shepherd calls but they hear nothing except the sound of shouts and cries. They are deaf, they are dumb, they are blind; therefore they do not understand anything.”

    • Suppose they are following MGAQ. How we come to know that this this is the same person that was reffering in Haddis and Quran. How come a person who was musrik for first 40 years of life and after that he become Massiah Mahood and So called Prophet. This is called beat about the bush.

  5. Ansar Raza Sahib used Hadith & Quran in support of his claims. Sadat Anwar sahib Not, rather he argued against the Hadith which clearly define “Muslim”. Yet he has the audacity to claim that we are not Muslims.

    • After having serious comments which Ansar Raza was not hoping then he is considering Sadat anwar as Scholar. And questioned asked by an old man Ansar Raza never answered that as well/

  6. @ Muslim Brother
    Anyone can state Hadith & Quran to support their claims out of context. Ansar Raza reinterpret Hadith & Quran in order to suit his claim, though it was not persuasive enough. Through out the debate Ansar Raza saheb failed to demonstrate why Ahmadiya Jamat should consider to be Muslim.

    On the other hand when none of his claim making sense to the audience, he accused brother Sadat being not a scholar therefor his claim is invalid, which is not very scholarly opinion indeed. If a student of islam like brother Sadat can perform like this then think what will happen if Ansar Raza saheb debate a Muslim scholar such as Shabir Ally.

    • Your are right brother Shahriar Parvez. You can actually see what happened to Ansar Raza saheb when he asked Shabir Ally a question at the end of Shabir Ally’s debate with James White in Jan 2012 at the North American Muslim Foundation in Scarborough. It is at 25 minute of the part 3/3 of the debate video posted by ShabirAllydebates. It was another attempt by Raza saheb to dig a meaning of his preference in the Qur’anic ayah.

      • Well, if Jesus is raised up for 2000 years which is unique among all Prophets and that Prophet Muhammad (sa) passed away at about the age of 60, it certainly is a perk for Christians to say that:

        “Look at your prophet, he died and is buried under soil and our son of god is up in the heavens which even your ‘greatest Prophet’ didn’t manage to achieve. Who is greater Jesus or Muhammad?”

        • @ the so-called, “Muslim Brother”
          As is evident from the Shabir Ally-James White video that I referenced above, the Christian debater, James White did not ask the question, which you are supposing would be a “perk” for Christians to ask. It is an Ahmedi who has a stake in that argument. As always, you stray away from the topic towards the ideas embedded into your mind by your mullas and you give a spin.

          I was actually supporting another commenter’s speculation of Ansar Raza’s state when he would face Muslim scholars, such as Shabir Ally after having been ravaged by a “non-scholar” Sadat Anwer. I gave example of Ansar Raza’s encounter with Shabir Ally, wherein he asked Shabir Ally, “You believe that Jesus Christ physically ascended up heaven. Don’t you think that he is God?” Note the crisp answer he got. Your chief missionary thought Jesus would become God by ascension. You speculate that it would make him greater than Muhammed SAS. What a reasoning! Please note that Ansar Raza himself further added in the same question, “He (Muhammed SAS) was ordered to say, I am nothing but a human prophet.”

    • Assalamo Alikum

      When Muslims debate they debate on commonality, the Quran, the Sunnah, thr Hadith. When Muslims debate Christians we debate on commonality, the Gospels etc. Every scholar should know that.

      Although Sadat Anwar Sahib was not discussing the topic given for mich of the time, one questioner did raise a valid point. He said that there are a number of prophecies contained in the Isaiah, Ezekiel etc which discuss the coming of the Jewish Messiah e.g. that he’ll be king etc. He asked how did Sadat Sahib interpret them because they certainly contradict (when taken literally), the actual descent of Jesus 2000 years ago e.g. he was poor etc. When asked about this Sadat Sahib outrightly rejected those completely as he believes that they were tampered with. However this raises a doubt about God: Jews could claim on the day of judgement that if Jesus was the true Jewish messiah, we would have known that Jesus was true but since You didn’t protect the prophecies, how could we have know that Jesus was indeed true?

      Thus the propecies could not have been tampered with. God sends a prophet but when the Jews discuss about his validity they find that it contradicts ther scriptures. Thus the prophecies contained in the scriptures could have changed wildly.

      When we see this it raises a question about the literal interpretation of Muslims regarding the descent of the Jewish messiah.

      Jazakallah

      • Thus the prophecies contained in the scriptures could have changed wildly.

        Should read :

        Thus the prophecies contained in the scriptures could not have changed wildly.

      • Look at your first paragraph. It presupposes one of the possible alternatives of the debate. Then what is the point in debating. It is not a shared premise that both sides are Muslims. Only one party holds the view

        • The point is both non-Ahmadis and Ahmadis believe in the Quran, the Hadith and the Sunnah as the fundamental sources. Thus, it is these sources that should be touched upon when deciding who is and who isn’t a Muslim. Ansar Raza sahib (and I in a comment) have stated a very-very clear cut Hadith which give a clear definition of who is and who isn’t a Muslim. According to it we are all Muslims.

      • If we are accepting your suppositions that Messiah has been died how we know that this is the person that is Massiah mahood and second MGAQ claims to be Imam Mehdi i have proof from Hadith that there is no teacher who taught him any language or there is no teacher for him. Is GAQ fullfill this criteria . Give me any proof that mirza had no teacher in his whole life just one proof i needed.

  7. I could go on and on about points made by Sadat Sahib. He says that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) was not buried on the grave of Hadhrat Muhammad (sa)? Indeed the Hadith do say this (if taken literally). Would any one of you volunteer to (God forbid) dig the grave? Truly disgusted.

    • There is a simple solution. Why don’t you dig up the current grave of MGA? If nothing else, you should find his bones. Would any one of you volunteer to dig his grave?

  8. It is surprising to note that you state that Sadat Anwer sahib “was not discussing the given topic for much of the time.” Yet, you credit the questioner having a “valid point”, when the questioner himself excused himself in the beginning for asking an unrelated question, “away from Islam and its actual teachings”. Please check it out again. More surprisingly, you have raised a totally irrelevant topic – that of “descent” (Nuzool).

    In your second, comment, are you implying that MGA was transferred underground to Madina Munawwara. I am amazed at your reasoning.

    I would urge you to argue sensibly against each of the the points made by Saadat Anwer sahib, rather than making blanket statements against them.

    • @Hamza

      The debate was not between the questioner and Sadat Sahib. Unless the questioner is forcefully not permitted to ask questions away from the given topic, he has every right to ask any question especially in the case when the debater I.e. Sadat Sahib spent much of his time diverging from the topic which as I implied earlier is not vert scholarly of him. Whereas the debater, for the sake of the debate should be spending his time discussing the topic of the debate. Which he didnt do very well.

      The issue may be irrelevant to the debate but I don’t see anywhere that this forum is too a part of the debate. I raised the issue because it questions the very foundation of literal interpretation of many ahadith that should not be taken literally. If you do have a response to the issue I’ve riased above then please do post it here.

      I never even for one second implied that the promised messiah (as) was transfered to medinah. I’m trying to point out the illogical and rather senseless interpretations of some ahadith. I ask again would you dig up the grave of Holy Prophet Muhammad sa to bury Isa as when he descends from the sky? If you rake the Hadith literally, that Isa as will be buried on the grave of Muhammad sa, surely someone would have to dig up?

      As for the topic is concerened, the Hadith is clear
      ” “Whoever observes Prayer in the same way as we do, and declares our qibla to be his qibla; one who eats from our dhabiha [i.e., the meat of our slaughtered animals] such a one is a Muslim. To protect such a person is a matterof obligation for God and His Messenger. So,[O ye Muslims!] make sure that you do not violate the obligation from God.”

      Sadat Sahib New better than Hadhrat Muhammad (sa)!

    • @Mufti Akbar Assalam alikum

      Ahmadis are Sunni Muslims too as they follow the sunnah of Hadhrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). However I humbly disagree with you. He struggled to stay on topic.

      • “It is our obligation that we do not consider non-ahmadis as muslims and do not pray behind them, because for us they have rejected one prophet (Mirza Ghulam) of God. This is a religious matter and no one has any right to do anything in it.” (Anwar-e-Khilafat, by Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa 2, p.90)

        “All muslims who are not included in the initiation of Maseeh Mowood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mowood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs.” (Aina-e-Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.35)

        “Every one who accepts Moses but not Eesa or accepts Eesa but not Mohammad or accepts Mohammad but not Maseeh Mowood, he is not only Kafir but a hardened Kafir and is out of the fold of Islam. (Kalimat-alFasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam

        The above is just a sample. Now either we billion or more Muslims are kafir as per your Khalifa or million or more of you are kafir. Guess what? We billion or more would say you follow different religion and therefore you are not Muslim.

        • These allegations have been replied to in the above video as Ansar Raza Sahib said Hadhrat Mirza basiruddin Ahmad clarified his opinion. Here I give some quotes:

          [b]“there is lot of difference in the definition of the KUFFIR between ahmadies and non ahmadies they consider the meaning of KAFFIR as the denial of islam , but we do not give this meaning to word kafir.”[/b]

          “We believe that after a certain limit a man get a right of being called as MUSLIM ,but when he degrade even from that limit , though he can be called a Muslim but he cannot be considered a TRUE MUSLIM . this is our definition of KUFFER and ISLAM.”

          Further he (rz) said .

          “According to this definition we do not say every KAFFIR will go to the hell for eternity. We do not call in this sense even Jews and Christians as KAFFIR we believe one day GOD will free them from hell and will enter them in the paradise. ” “there is lot of difference between their and out definition of KUFFIR ”

          he (rz) then said

          “again I pronounce we do not give KUFFIR that meaning which they (other Muslims ) give. According to us ,the term KUFFIR is applicable after a certain limit. When a person consider ISLAM as his religion and quranic commands as his manual of action , he gets the right of being called as the MUSLIM but in TRUE SENSE he becomes MUSLISM when he acts on the Islamic teachings, but when he denies of some fundamental of islam then HE IS CALLED A MULSLIM but in TRUE SENSE he does not remain a Muslim ”

          “we do not consider KAFFIR is the one who rejects Hazrat MUHAMMAD (saw) as a prophet – when some one say that I believe in hazrat Muhammad (saw) then who else can say that you do not believe in hazrat Muhamamd (saw)… in our opinion denying of some fundamental of islam is KUFFIR and such a person cannot be a TRUE MUSLIM ”

          “if that definition of KUFFIR is used which these Muslims use , then in our opinion , according to that definition , there is no KAFFIR in Christians , Hindus , Jews, and other non muslims ”

          clearly telling us that according the hazrat Musleah Maood ‘s (rz) a person will remain Muslim . however, he does not remains a true Muslim . Denial of hazrat messiah Maood (as) makes the musilm a kaffir in that sense and not in the sense of non Muslim . a person becomes a NON MUSILIM only when he says that I am leaving the islam , until he calls himself a muslims no one has the right to make him non muslim.

          Now I ask what evidence do YOU have that confirms that Ahmadis are Non muslim or Kafir as in the standard definition?

          • @ Muslim Brother

            There is no such thing is called “your definition”or “our definition”… you can not introduce new meaning to a word just to support your believe. Forget what you think the word kuffir or kaffir mean. The meaning was establish long before your so called faith came to exist.

            • @Shahriar Pervez.

              That is a different argument. If you are going to use Ahmadiyya literature to present the views of Ahmadi Muslim leaders, surely it is given that you must use the understanding i.e. definition as understood by the Ahmadi Muslim leaders.

          • First explain to us what does your Khalifa mean when he says “……..he is not only kafir but a hardened kafir and out of the fold of Islam”.

            Also, these are not allegations because the definition of allegation is “an assertion made with little or no proof” and these are true statements made by your Khalifa.

              • I have produced exact quotes not made up ones. The implication is obvious. One does not need a PhD in English to understand it.

                Since you left out my key question, now let me explain to you.

                According to your Khalifa “everyone who accepts…….Mohammed (PBUH) but not maseeh mowood is not only kafir but hardened kafir and out of fold of Islam”.

                Any sane individual understands that when somebody is out of the fold of Islam, he no longer remains muslim. So based on your Khalifa’s statement we billion Muslims are out of fold of Islam.

                • But that does not mean that Ahmadi Muslims should consider non-Ahmadi Muslims as non-Muslims. Nor does it mean that we should consider them outside the fold of Islam. Remember who God is: The Judge. He decides who is and who is not a Muslim. I believe that the second Khalifa (ra) is specifying a general criterion (as in the eyes of God) of who is truly in its truest sense a Muslim or within the fold of Islam. The second khalifa refers to non-Ahmadi Muslims as Muslims in his books and therefore the interpretation that the Ahmadiyya Jama’at considers other Muslims as non-Muslims is illogical. This is supported by the Hadith:

                  “Whoever observes Prayer in the same way as we do, and declares our qibla to be his qibla; one who eats from our dhabiha [i.e., the meat of our slaughtered animals] such a one is a Muslim. To protect such a person is a matter of obligation for God and His Messenger. So,[O ye Muslims!] make sure that you do not violate the obligation from God.”

                  We never-ever-ever-ever refer to non-Ahmadi Muslims as non-Muslims. You do. Think in line of this Hadith….are you violating the obligation of God?

                  • hello ahmadiya member . It is very simple . If you believe in a prophet after muhammad(puh), then you are a kafir . Do you understand that? You will never be accepted to enter makkah .

                    Makkah is not a sightseeing place for tourists . There are lots of budhist tempels you could visit you are welcome there . yes Muslims dont have a free ticket to enter paradise life is a test but at least muslims on earth all are a witness against ahmadiya members . That is there position let alone the judgement by Allah subhanahu ta3aala.

                    Muhammad(puh) himself dealt with the likes of your false prophet . By the way one advice : dont call yourself a muslim because when you mention Allah and perhaps that you may misguide a non muslim to follow your false prophet (puh) you then indeed are lying against Allah and there is awaitening a severe punishment for those who do that . So come back to islam or at least become a budhist then at least you will not say Allah says .this or that .

                    bye bye .

                  • So according to your Khalifa since we do not believe in maseeh mowood MGA, we are out of fold of Islam, but according to you it does not mean that you consider us outside the fold of Islam. Really? So either your Khalifa is wrong or you don’t believe in him. Which is true? Listen buddy, don’t try to feed us load of crap. We are not so gullible! You don’t have to try to convince us that we both are of the same faith. NO, NO and NO. Your so called nabi and Khalifa have clearly stated we are outside the fold of Islam that means we are of different faith. I agree. But they are partially true. We billion or more are not outside the fold of Islam but you are.

                  • @Ibrahim

                    It is clear that you did not understand me. I’ll attempt once again:

                    There is a difference between principle and convention. Consider the Hadith which I’ve quoted innumerable times by now:

                    “Whoever observes Prayer in the same way as we do, and declares our qibla to be his qibla; one who eats from our dhabiha [i.e., the meat of our slaughtered animals] such a one is a Muslim. To protect such a person is a matter of obligation for God and His Messenger. So,[O ye Muslims!] make sure that you do not violate the obligation from God.”

                    This Hadith sets a Convention for all Muslims to follow, that is whoever fulfils the criteria above is to be considered a Muslim. In other words, no Muslim has the right to say that such and such is a non-Muslim given that he/she fulfils the criteria above. The Holy Prophet and Allah has given has no right to call another person a non-Muslim, provided the above conditions are fulfilled.

                    But by principle if an individual does not meet certain (additional) criteria he/she may not be a Muslim. In other words, a person may not be considered a true Muslim in the eyes of God if he/she does not fulfil certain criteria. Allah knows best what this criteria is, which of course can depend from person to person and situation to situation. Take an example: it is considered, that a true Muslim must necessarily believe in all the messengers of God and therefore rejection of a single messenger leads one to be out of the fold of Islam and a non-Muslim. Again I must reiterate, that this is by principle. It is not for us (as humans) to consider that such a person is a non-Muslim. We have not been given any right to call such and such a non-Muslim, nor consider him/her to be one.

                    As far as I understand this is what is being explained by Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih II. You will find that in numerous instances that he calls non-Ahmadi Muslims as exactly that,i.e. Muslims. But when he refers to such and such is out of the fold of Islam, he is referring to the principle.

                    I hope it is clear now.

                    However, it’s intersting to note that members of this forum are ever-ready to attack the writings of the spiritual leaders of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at but on the other hand when they are faced with clear-cut Hadith that clears the whole situation once and for all, ….it goes un-noticed.

                    @abdelaziz

                    We may not be permitted to enter mecca, but lo and behold! many Ahmadi Muslims do every year. However I’d like you remind you of one person who was also not permitted to enter mecca: Hadhrat Muhammad (sa)!

                    We call ourselves Muslims. We will never stop. You stand up against us, we will still call ourselves Muslims – The whole nation stands up against us, we will still call ourselves Muslims – The whole stands up against us, guess what, we will still call ourselves Muslims. We are not afraid in face of demands or persecution.

                    It was one village, in the rural areas of the Punjab when as a young man, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad received a revelation that Kings shall seek blessings from him. He also received a revelation that his message will reach the corners of the earth. Today the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama’at is the single largest Jama’at with followers in 200+ nations with tens of millions of followers in less than 125 years, in spite of persecution, in spite of governments standing up against us, in spite of the declarations by world governments declaring us as a non-Muslim group. Every single year, every single day, every single second the Jama’a’t of the Promised Messiah is being blessed with success upon success. This Jama’at has translated the Qur’an more that the World Muslims combined. This Jama’at is in virtually in every country propagating the peaceful message of the Islam. This is the Jama’at of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). WELCOME.

          • Why those explicit statements need any clarification. They are self explanatory. Your explanations are very similar to those Christian explanations doing with trinity – person- fully God – fully man etc.

            • To many Christians Quranic statements are clear, but to Muslims they are taken often out of context. If you need examples, do say so.

              • “everyone who accepts…….Mohammed (PBUH) but not maseeh mowood is not only kafir but hardened kafir and out of fold of Islam”.

                Read 100 times.

                Hopefully you will understand what your so called khalifa tried to say.What you are doing is called turning black in to white.

                  • 1. When MGA and your Khalifa were declaring us hardened kafir and out of fold of Islam, were they not aware of the prescribed Hadith?
                    2. So according to your Khalifa we are Muslims but out of fold of Islam? Wow! He must be a very intelligent man. Look at the definition of muslim in the dictionary and be educated. Please stop playing with words to defend your khalifa’s statements. They speak for themselves.
                    3. I can perfectly understand why you guys would not stop calling yourself Muslims. If you stop calling yourself Muslims, you will not be able to deceive common illiterate but true Muslims towards your cult. It is easy to convince somebody unaware of the character of MGA to fool. 95% of Quadianis are not aware of real MGA and his life of shady character. The remaining 5% are on the payroll so would defend him anyway.
                    4. For your kind information atheist are increasing day by day in numbers. Does that mean they are true?
                    5. Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) actually entered Mecca with great victory and destroyed false gods. Allah made sure false nabi MGA did not come even in the vicinity of Mecca or Madina, forget about visiting these holy places.
                    6. Thanks for the invitation but we have no intention to making contribution to Mirza co- op bank. Nor we would like to get an automatic entry to paradise as promised by your maseeh mowood by writing wasiyyat and will to his name so that we can be burried by his side and enter salvation. Astagfirullah.
                    7. Why don’t you study about MGA, his character from his own books in Urdu? Don’t accept everything what your murrabis feed you. Similar to many of his followers who reverted back to true Islam, you will come to conclusion that he was false nabi and your khalifas are nothing but swindlers. May Allah guide to the straight path. Amen.

                  • @Ibrahim

                    1&2 – It is again clear that you did not understand me. I have explained it twice both in different ways. I never said nor implied that Khalifatul Masih II considers non-Ahmadi Muslims as “Muslims yet outside the fold of Islam”. You don’t have to agree with me. The least you could do is try and understand what I’m saying above. Read slowly if that helps.

                    3 – Quite interestingly I happen to be of the 95% who are not on the “payroll” – yet I defend Islam Ahmadiyya. I am only a university student. I have never held a Jama’at office, not even a small local one. In simple language, your totally wrong and are just throwing mere allegations with no real meaning.

                    4 – I never said nor did I mean to imply that numbers mean something. I was referring to the fulfilment of some powerful prophecies. It is true however, from Quranic evidence that false Prophets (and thus their Jama’at) are never permitted to progress. Since the Jama’at is successful, and since Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) claimed to be a Prophet, and if he (God forbid) was a false prophet, we would have to say that we have a contradiction in the Qur’an.

                    5 – Many Prophets in the history of mankind never went to Mecca. Should we take them to be false? Besides, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) was only following the commandment of God and his master Hadhrat Muhammad (sa) by not going. This is because Hajj is conditional upon many factors such as good health, safety and financial support. In his early life he was not able to visit to due financial matters and later due to safety.

                    6 – Paradise is not necessarily promised by being buried in Bahishti Maqbara. Again you are totally wrong.

                    7 – If you hadn’t realized the main purpose of the murabbis is to propagate the message of true Islam, i.e. to non-Ahmadis. In simple language, I haven’t been “fed” by murabbis. Most of what I have learnt from my self-study, my Khulafas and off-course from the Grace of God.

                  • Regarding your Jan 07 comments..

                    1&2 Oxford dictionary defn: Muslim – A follower of the religion of Islam. According to MGA and your Khalifa since we do not believe in your maseeh mowood we are out of the fold of Islam. If the follower of Islam is called muslim, anyone out of the fold of Islam can’t be a muslim. So according to your religion heads we are no longer Muslims. It is crystal clear like black and white. But Quadianis are expert in playing with words similar to their so called maseeh mowood MGA to purposely create confusion.

                    3. Read slowly what I said. If you consider yourself in 95% category means you have not studied the character of MGA. You defend Quadianism because you have been spoon fed its doctrine and only selective info on MGA. You better start studying the character of your nabi and realize he was a false prophet before it is too late. Learn Urdu and read and ponder upon his writings. I guarantee you will realize your false beliefs and become true follower of Islam. Just ask yourself why no scholar of Quadianism would debate the character of MGA.

                    4. There is no contradiction in Quran. MGA was a false prophet.

                    5. You are right that visiting Mecca or Medina is not a requirement for a prophet. However The fact is it was your prophet’s prophesy that “I will die either in Mekkah or Medina.”
                    (Tadhkira, P. 591).
                    We all know he didn’t die in Mecca or Medina. He died in Lahore. I am fully aware that Quadianis will have some stupid explanation for this failed prophecy.

                    6. It is called graveyard of the heavenly and it means heaven is promised to those who are buried in this graveyard. Read wasiyyat in Urdu.

                    7. See #3.

                  • @Ibrahim:

                    1&2 – I understand that “non-Muslim”=”outside the fold of Islam”. I again reiterate that it is clear that you have either, NOT understood my comments that I have been referring to (i.e. January 4 and January 6 comments) or that you are deliberately ignoring what I have said in those comments. You have NOT rebutted any of what I have said in those two comments regarding the opinion of Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih II. All what you are doing is re-stating what your opinion is without substantiating them with valid arguments. I AGAIN and AGAIN re-emphasize that I believe that Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih II does not consider non-Ahmadi Muslims as non-Muslims, nor does he consider them to be outside the fold of Islam. For arguments in support of this claim please SEE my comments dated January 4 and January 6.

                    By simply stating that I am “playing with words”, does necessarily imply that I am. What is your argument in support of that?

                    3 – I did read slowly. I never said that you didn’t state or implied that you said that “95% category means you have not studied the character of MGA”. You however did say that “remaining 5% are on the payroll” which is equivalent to saying that “95% who are not on the payroll”. You and I are going to have a hard time (though quite wasteful), if you are going to attack my semantics.

                    Do remind yourself of my previous point 7 how I am NOT spoon-fed.

                    I have studied the character of the Promised Messiah (May peace be upon him). Just not the twisted out-of-context interpretations. You must have learnt the character though. My question is from where? Anti-Ahmadi sites? If so, this is the equivalent of learning the character of Hadhrat Muhammad (mpeace and blessings of Allah be upon him) from Anti-Islam sites. Quite a parallel, I’d say.

                    4 – OK?

                    5 – If you agree that Prophets don’t necessarily need to visit mecca/medinah why did you raise that quarrel?

                    Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) says “This sentence ‘I shall die in Mecca or in Medina’ means that before my death I shall be bestowed a victory like that of Mecca. That is to say as the Holy Prophet had vanquished his enemies through the manifestation of the majestic Signs of Allah, so will it happen now. The second meaning is that, before my death, I shall be bestowed a victory like that of Medina which means that people’s hearts will of their own be inclined towards me”.

                    So please don’t take things out of context.

                    6 – Please do provide a reference which does mention that every single person will necessarily be promised heaven who is buried therein.

  9. Our Ahmadi Brother in the guise of “Muslim Brother” wants to make it appear as though he has a reply to anything a Muslim says. But please examine what he writes. How much sense does he make? How similar are his arguments to Christian evangelists!!

    • Yes. I second your statement where you say “How much sense does he make?”. So everyone please do check am I making more sense or the rest of the commentators. In particular do check what response the commentators have on the Hadith:

      “Whoever observes Prayer in the same way as we do, and declares our qibla to be his qibla; one who eats from our dhabiha [i.e., the meat of our slaughtered animals] such a one is a Muslim. To protect such a person is a matter of obligation for God and His Messenger. So,[O ye Muslims!] make sure that you do not violate the obligation from God.”

      • WITH REFERENCE TO COMMENTS OF “MUSLIM BROTHER”, DATED JANUARY 6 and 4.
        You stated that it was according to the “principle” that your khalifa pronounced someone out of fold of Islam,. “But when he refers to such and such is out of the fold of Islam, he is referring to the principle.”
        You also defined the “principle” as rejection of a single messenger. “…rejection of a single messenger leads one to be out of the fold of Islam and a non-Muslim. Again I must reiterate, that this is by principle.”
        According to your own two statements quoted above, we Muslims who consider MGA as an imposter and reject him, are automatically out of fold of Islam and are non-Muslims.
        Where did you get the concept of “Principle” and “Convention?” Please explain to me how did you arrive at assigning the labels, “principle” to a Hadith and “convention” to a Qur’anic injunction—were you were referring to Surah un-Nisa’ 4:150-151?
        How do you explain Surah un-Nisa’ 4:150-151? which states that people who say, “We believe in some prophets and disbelieve in others” are “Kaafiroona haqqa” (True disbelievers) and a humiliating punishment is prepared for them?
        In the debate video, please note “non-scholar” Sadat Anwer refers to Ansar Raza’s following (translated) statement on his radio program of Feb 12, 2012: “It’s a fundamental matter that because the Promised Messiah is included among the prophets, for this reason those who reject him will become kafirs in the same way as the rejecters of any other prophet” Later in the debate, Ansar Raza sahib retracted his statement.
        Later in the same debate, Answer Raza asserted the following regarding the Lahori Ahmediyya Jamat: “A religion is something in which beliefs in those fundamental tenets, principle tenets, which are different from others. The belief or the principal tenet of Ahmediyya Muslim Jamaat are fundamentally two: First one that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed alaihis-salat-o salam is a prophet of God and the second that we have the khilafat…These are our two fundamental pillars of our Jamaat. Everyone else, they either reject both of them or one of them, so they are (as a result) not our sect; they are different jamaat. THEY ARE DIFFERENT RELIGION. THEY (LAHORIS) ARE YOUR SECT BECAUSE THEY AGREE WITH YOU.” If he calls Lahoris’ religion different and lumps them with us, then Muslims are out of fold of Islam. Are they not?
        Your confusion is apparent from your following statement: “In other words, a person may not be considered a true Muslim in the eyes of God if he/she does not fulfil certain criteria. Allah knows best what this criteria is, which of course can depend from person to person and situation to situation.”
        If this is not playing with words, what is this then? “ ‘I shall die in Mecca or in Medina’ means that before my death I shall be bestowed a victory like that of Mecca…” Why cannot MGA speak straight? You have not given the reference of this screwed explanation. Fact of the matter is that Mirza died of Cholera!
        My dear Ahmedi brother, please explain what Ansar Raza saheb could not to Sadat Anwer’s quotation of a hadith (Sunan Abu Da’ud, Book 14, No. 2755) from the authentic sources in which the Prophet (s) after ascertaining that Musaylimah’s heralds truly believed in Musaylimah’s prophethood, told them: “I swear by Allah that were it not that heralds are not killed, I would strike off your heads.”
        May Allah SWT open your mind for understanding. Ameen.

      • I apologize the repeat of this reply
        WITH REFERENCE TO YOUR COMMENTS DATED JANUARY 6 and 4.
        You stated that it was according to the “principle” that your khalifa pronounced someone out of fold of Islam,. “But when he refers to such and such is out of the fold of Islam, he is referring to the principle.”

        You also defined the “principle” as rejection of a single messenger. “…rejection of a single messenger leads one to be out of the fold of Islam and a non-Muslim. Again I must reiterate, that this is by principle.”

        According to your own two statements quoted above, we Muslims who consider MGA as an imposter and reject him, are automatically out of fold of Islam and are non-Muslims.

        Where did you get the concept of “Principle” and “Convention?” What do they mean? Please explain to me how did you arrive at assigning the labels, “principle” to a Hadith and “convention” to a Qur’anic injunction—were you were referring to Surah un-Nisa’ 4:150-151?

        How do you explain Surah un-Nisa’ 4:150-151? which states that people who say, “We believe in some prophets and disbelieve in others” are “Kaafiroona haqqa” (True disbelievers) and a humiliating punishment is prepared for them?

        In the debate video, please note “non-scholar” Sadat Anwer refers to Ansar Raza’s following (translated) statement on his radio program of Feb 12, 2012: “It’s a fundamental matter that because the Promised Messiah is included among the prophets, for this reason those who reject him will become kafirs in the same way as the rejecters of any other prophet” Later in the debate, Ansar Raza sahib retracted his statement.

        Later in the same debate, Answer Raza asserted the following regarding the Lahori Ahmediyya Jamat: “A religion is something in which beliefs in those fundamental tenets, principle tenets, which are different from others. The belief or the principal tenet of Ahmediyya Muslim Jamaat are fundamentally two: First one that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed alaihis-salat-o salam is a prophet of God and the second that we have the khilafat…These are our two fundamental pillars of our Jamaat. Everyone else, they either reject both of them or one of them, so they are (as a result) not our sect; they are different jamaat. THEY ARE DIFFERENT RELIGION. THEY (LAHORIS) ARE YOUR SECT BECAUSE THEY AGREE WITH YOU.” If he calls Lahoris’ religion different and lumps them with us, then Muslims are out of fold of Islam. Are they not?

        Your confusion is apparent also from your following statement: “In other words, a person may not be considered a true Muslim in the eyes of God if he/she does not fulfil certain criteria. Allah knows best what this criteria is, which of course can depend from person to person and situation to situation.”

        If this is not playing with words, explain what then is playing of words? “ ‘I shall die in Mecca or in Medina’ means that before my death I shall be bestowed a victory like that of Mecca…” Why cannot MGA speak straight? You have not given the reference of this screwed explanation. Fact of the matter is that Mirza died of Cholera!

        My dear Ahmedi brother, please explain what Ansar Raza saheb could not to Sadat Anwer saheb’s quotation of a hadith (Sunan Abu Da’ud, Book 14, No. 2755) from the authentic sources in which the Prophet (s) after ascertaining that Musaylimah’s heralds truly believed in Musaylimah’s prophethood, told them: “I swear by Allah that were it not that heralds are not killed, I would strike off your heads.”

        May Allah SWT open your mind for understanding his deen. Ameen.

        • @Hamza Salaam.

          1 – You are confusing two different arguments altogether. It is irrelevant for the purpose of the above allegation where the concept of principle and convention comes from. Whether we see that it is reflected in Islamic teaching or not is a totally different argument. I remind you of the allegation: The allegation was that Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih considers non-Ahmadi Muslims as non-Muslims and outside the fold of Islam. My January 4, 6 comments were a reply to this allegation. When you seek someone’s opinion you look through their eyes. That is, you don’t apply your understanding of concepts. In other words, whether the concept of principle and convention exists is not relevant for the purposes of the allegation raised.

          once you have accepted that only in principle Ahmadi Muslims (including their spiritual leaders) consider (for example) those who reject a single messenger to be outside the fold of Islam BUT by Islamic law (call it convention, prohibition etc) Muslims those who fulfil the criteria as mentioned in the oft-mentioned hadith, ONLY THEN you can raise the allegation “Where did you get the concept of Principle and Convention?”

          2 – As Ansar Raza sahib rightly said quoting him is rather pointless, as he could have made an error, as all humans do.

          3 – I would be grateful if you could clarify how exactly the quote above of mine is an apparent confusion. You quote my writing, but forget to justify your claim.

          4 – How am I playing with words? The Promised Messiah (as) gave an explanation of the revelation he received. Symbolism is used across all religious scriptures. victory at Mecca, Medinah symbolise something. Have you not heard of any symbolism? Do you take the “hand of Allah” as often mentioned in the Qur’an to be literally a 4-finger, 1-thumb super-duper giant hand?

          5 – Let me tell you of a trait of an Islamophobe. He would raise an allegation. A Muslim would reply with powerful arguments. The Islamophobe would move on and raise another allegation. The Muslim would again reply with powerful arguments. Again, The Islamophobe would move on and raise another allegation. The Muslim would again reply with powerful arguments……and we have a never ending story.

          This is the path you and your friends are treading on here.

          6 – “I swear by Allah that were it not that heralds are not killed, I would strike off your heads.” Could you give an explaination why they are not to be killed?

  10. With reference to comments of “muslim brother” dated Jan 08

    This is what you wrote “As far as I understand this is what is being explained by Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih II. You will find that in numerous instances that he calls non-Ahmadi Muslims as exactly that,i.e. Muslims. But when he refers to such and such is out of the fold of Islam, he is referring to the principle.”

    You agreed that out of the fold of Islam means non-muslim. And accordingly to you when your Khalifa refers to us as out of the fold of Islam, he is doing it based on principle. In the same breath you are telling us that if it is by principle than It is not for us (as humans) to consider that such a person is a non-Muslim. Guess what, your Khalifa was human and he considered billion Muslims out of fold of Islam. Can you now see how you are contradicting yourself?

    This is what you wrote”I believe that Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih II does not consider non-Ahmadi Muslims as non-Muslims, nor does he consider them to be outside the fold of Islam”. Now compare it to your khalifa’s statements reproduced below.

    “It is our obligation that we do not consider non-ahmadis as muslims and do not pray behind them, because for us they have rejected one prophet (Mirza Ghulam) of God. This is a religious matter and no one has any right to do anything in it.” (Anwar-e-Khilafat, by Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa 2, p.90)

    “All muslims who are not included in the initiation of Maseeh Mowood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mowood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs.” (Aina-e-Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.35)

    “Every one who accepts Moses but not Eesa or accepts Eesa but not Mohammad or accepts Mohammad but not Maseeh Mowood, he is not only Kafir but a hardened Kafir and is out of the fold of Islam. (Kalimat-alFasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam.

    We don’t care what you believe in or think what your Khalifa believed in. Because from the above statements we perfectly understand what they believed in. They consider us out of fold of Islam because we don’t consider MGA to be a prophet.

    This is what I wrote “I am fully aware that Quadianis will have some stupid explanation for this failed prophecy.” on MGA’s prophecy of his prophesied death in Mecca or Medina. Your explanation “This sentence ‘I shall die in Mecca or in Medina’ means that before my death I shall be bestowed a victory like that of Mecca. That is to say as the Holy Prophet had vanquished his enemies through the manifestation of the majestic Signs of Allah, so will it happen now. The second meaning is that, before my death, I shall be bestowed a victory like that of Medina which means that people’s hearts will of their own be inclined towards me”. proves what I exactly expected. Wow! What an explanation for a failed prophecy!

    We don’t need anti-ahmedia websites for getting educated on who MGA was. His true character is reflected in his writings. We read his books and develop our own opinion in the light of Quran and Hadith. According to MGA “Anyone who has not read my books at least three times, his faith is in doubt.”
    (Seerat-ul-Mahdi, No. 407, Vol. 2, P. 78)
    I doubt you have read his all books (and he wrote 80 or more books) three times so according to your own Prophet your faith is in doubt. This is your prophet for you!

    Regarding Behishti Maqbara I am reproducing a straight quote from Ahmedia website explaining what is Wassiyyat. “….the promised messiah had a dream in which he saw a graveyard containing his grave and he was told the graveyard was for those members of jamat who were destined for heaven. This graveyard was called Behisti Maqbara”. There you have it. A proof that according to Quadiani belief based on MGA dream jamat members burried in Behishti Maqbara are destined for heaven.

    May Allah SWT open your mind, eyes, ears and heart for understanding. Ameen.

    • 1 – “Can you now see how you are contradicting yourself?”

      I am not contradicting myself. If you think that this is a contradiction, then in that sense I will show you a parallel (so-called) contradiction in the Holy Qur’an. I understand what Khalifatul Masih II (ra) is saying. You either don’t understand or you are purposely missing the difference I am trying to point out between declaring someone a non-Muslim and upholding a view that a certain belief can lead someone to be a non-Muslim or as in the Dictionary definition, outside the fold of Islam.

      As I explained earlier that I wholly believe and agree with what Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih has said. But also I consider non-Ahmadi Muslims as Muslims. Here I shall draw a parallel with the teachings of the Qur’an:

      As one of you pointed out earlier the Quranic verse:

      [4:151] Surely, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and desire to make a distinction between Allah and His Messengers, and say, ‘We believe in some and disbelieve in others,’ and desire to take a way in between,
      [4:152] These indeed are veritable disbelievers, and We have prepared for the disbelievers an humiliating punishment.

      In other words, to reject a single messenger of Allah, say Hadhrat Moses (as), leads one to Kufr. But if we rewind a little we also find:

      [4:95] O ye who believe! when you go forth in the cause of Allah, make proper investigation and say not to anyone who greets you with the greeting of peace, ‘Thou art not a believer.’

      In other words, in general If someone rejects a messenger of Allah, say Hadhrat Moses (as), we cannot declare him to be kafir.

      To summarize the two verses we (humans) can say and uphold a belief that rejecting messengers leads one to kufr, but we cannot say and declare a person to be kafir. Similarly, we Ahmadi Muslims point out a beautiful point which is designed to promote dignified social relations between people of different beliefs. Though people may believe in a particular person as a prophet, eg: ahmadi muslims believe in Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) and indeed, the implication of that belief and the verse of the Qur’an quoted earlier (4:151-152), is that those who do not accept the prophet they believe in, are disbelievers. But believers are not, and I repeat, not permitted by the above quoted verse of the Qur’an (4:95) to go around calling other people kafir nor to hold it in their heart that they are, for Allah alone is Malik e Yaumideen-the Master of the Judgement.

      This is exactly what I believe Hadhrat Khalifatul Masih is saying. When her refers to non-Ahmadi Muslims, he often uses the phrase “non-Ahmadi Muslims”. But when he stating his beliefs, that is a different matter. Ahmadi Muslims do not consider non-Ahmadi Muslims as non-Muslims or outside the pale of Islam. But they do believe that a certain belief i.e. the disbelief does lead to kufr and outside the pale of Islam in its true sense and meaning. We take you at face value. You call yourself Muslim, then we call you Muslims. We don’t judge you and your heart. But YOU DO! No Ahmadi leader, young, old, male, female goes around declaring another person a kafir or a non-Muslim. But YOU DO! In complete contradiction to the teachings of the Holy Qur’an and oft-repeated Hadith!

      2 – “Your explanation “This sentence ‘I shall die in Mecca or in Medina’ means…..”

      No! That was not my explanation. That was the explanation by the Promised Messiah (as) himself! If you had kept your words, that you “don’t need anti-ahmedia websites for getting educated on who [Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as)] was”, then you would have realised that that was the explanation of the revelation given by the Promised Messiah (as) himself, on the SAME PAGE as the Prophecy! In other words, the Prophecy was fulfilled as the Promised Messiah (as) expected it to fulfil.

      3 – “….the promised messiah had a dream in which he saw a graveyard containing his grave and he was told the graveyard was for those members of jamat who were destined for heaven. This graveyard was called Behisti Maqbara”

      This is not the same as saying that everyone buried in the graveyard will necessarily be granted paradise. There are a number of conditions for burial, besides a larger proportion of financial sacrifice. One of them is:

      “The third condition is that each one who is buried
      here should have led a righteous life and abstained
      from all that is prohibited, and should have not
      been guilty of Shirk52 and Bid‘at53. He should be
      a true and sincere Muslim.”

      In other words, a person who fulfils ALL of these criteria will (which I haven’t quoted), by the Will of God, be granted paradise. Humans cannot judge the inner state of the individual. In other words, only Allah knows best who fulfils the perfect criteria for burial. As for the Jama’at, we can only see an individual’s financial sacrifice. In conclusion, we cannot be definite about every single individual buried there.

      • 1. So according to your Khalifa and you in your heart you consider us non-muslim because of our refusal in believing in your prophet, but you will not tell it on our face because you are not sure for we may be forgiven by Allah. In that case why don’t you become a true muslim who believes in the finality of prophethood? You have everything to gain. If MGA was really a true prophet (which we consider not true) for the sake of argument, and if you don’t believe in him like we don’t, following your premises, insAllah you will be forgiven because you are still muslim like you consider us to be a muslim. And if he is not (like our belief), you don’t have to worry about it because you didn’t believe in him as a prophet anyway. So it is a win win situation for you if you accept our faith.

        If your jama’t believes us as Muslims, why those who revert back from your faith and become a Sunni muslim are ostracized by your jama’t? It should not bother your jama’t an iota because according to you we are all muslim brothers after all!

        2. If MGA himself gave such a ridiculous explanation on his unfulfilled prophecy, it is worst. Please, Don’t try to feed us on this symbology crap because whenever MGA and his followers are asked regarding his idiotic statements and unfulfilled prophecies for satisfactory explanation, the only thing they can put forward is this symbology crap. Nothing concrete is offered in the way of explanation.

        3. Since only Allah knows best who fulfills the perfect criteria of burial and what is in the heart of human being, why MGA stated that graveyard was for those members of the jamat who were destined for heaven? There is a big difference when one states that you do such and such Nobel deed with fundamental beliefs in Islam, you may go to heaven and to say that you pay minimum10% of your income to Mirza bank,, leave your life savings for Mirza bank, and do good deeds, we will give you a place in such and such graveyard and you are now destined for heaven. It more looks like MGA devised a good financing scheme for his bank. It is called blackmail.

        I pray to Allah that he may open your heart and mind for real understanding of Islam and guide us all on straight path.

        Well, it was a good discussion and like everything else it has to end.GOOD BYE!

        • 1 – As I said earlier that we do not hold that in our heart either. We call you Muslim AND consider you Muslims. It is God who is Master of the Day of Judgement.

          As far as forgiveness is concerned, each Muslim needs to seek forgiveness, whether that Muslim is Ahmadi or not. It is entirely possible that in the the eyes of Allah Almighty, a Christian is better than an Ahmadi Muslim. Labelling youself a Muslim or for that matter an Ahmadi Muslim doesn’t guarantee eternal salvation.

          As I said earlier, whilst we take you as Muslim, we also consider that recognizing every messenger of God is compulsory and not doing so is being disobedient to God and his greatest Messenger Hadhrat Muhammad (sa). We will therefore ALWAYS remind you that the one destined to come, as prophecised by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sa) has indeed come! Believe or not! Our work is only to convey the message, not to convert which is only in the hands of Allah.

          2 – I should only need to remind you of the following verses:

          [17:91]”And they say, ‘We will never believe thee until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth;”

          [17:92]”Or thou have a garden of datepalms and vines, and cause streams to gush forth in the midst thereof in abundance”

          [17:93]”Or thou cause the heaven to fall upon us in pieces, as thou hast claimed, or thou bring Allah and the angels before us face to face;”

          [17:94]” Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.”

          In simple language, in the context of our discussion, the prophecies will not be fulfilled the way YOU desire them to be fulfilled, rather they will be fulfilled, the way they are intended to be fulfilled by Allah Almighty.

          3 – According to the quote that you have provided, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) did not state that every single person buried will indiscriminately be destined for heaven. It was a vision. And you should know very well from Islamic history that visions are not normally taken to be literal. Rather, they point to a purpose, a mission, a goal. They have a much deeper meaning. If you think that voluntarily giving minimum of 10% is blackmail, then do remind yourself that your opinion is not very different to those non-Muslims who think that Zakat is too a blackmail, for the purposes of Islamic imperialism.

          Peace be unto you!

          • Your claim that we are considered as Muslims by you is phoney. Why? Because you do not offer prayer behind our Imams. You do not offer janaza prayers for our deceased. You do not allow your daughters to be married in our family. You ostracize any of your members who revert back to sunni muslim. So your claim of considering us Muslims is nothing but a sweet talk. Please start practicing what you preach.

            It has become an art with MGA and his followers in providing the explanation for his unfulfilled prophesies. I am well aware of his filthy visions. No need to expose him more. Any surprise why his life ended in toilet?

            There are major differences between giving zakat and Mirza’s Wassiyyat. The zakat can be given to any needy person who fulfills the conditions for zakat recipient. According to Mirza minimum 10% offering is a pre-condition for somebody to be buried in Mirza’s company for promised heaven and another pre-condition is that 10% must be given to Mirza bank, nobody else. Period. So giving alms to a poor person is not an Islamic imperialism or black mail but MGA asking 10% from a common folk as a pre-condition to be buried beside him for promised heaven is definitely a black mail and the other pre-condition that it must be given to Mirza bank only is not only black mail but also Mirza imperialism in practice.

            • 1 – We pray behind your imams or not has nothing to do whether we consider you Muslims or not. Generally Ahmadis do not pray behind Imam’s of non-Ahmadi Muslims. However, there is no such absolute rule. If there is no Ahmadi mosque or salat-centre nearby (which is unlikely), Ahmadis can pray behind Imams of non-Ahmadi Muslims. However, this is done with certain conditions in mind, that is, that Ahmadi Muslim must convey the message of the Promised Messiah (as) to the Imam of that particular mosque and request him to read his claims and come up with a decision within a set period of time, say a few months. If the Imam refuses to study the teachings of the Promised Messiah (as), then all is well…that Imam is not worthy of being followed anyway, for he refuses to study the teachings of a potential prophet of Allah. If he is willing to study and come up with a conclusion within a set period of time, then that Ahmadi can pray behind that Imam up until the period of his decision. If the Imam accepts the teachings of the Imam Mahdi, then all is well. If not, that Imam has actively rejected the teachings of the Prophet of Allah. In that case, that Ahmadi then reads his own prayers.

              In conclusion there is no absolute rule and therefore has nothing to do with whether we consider you Muslims or non-Muslims. A Congregational prayer represents unity between the followers of the Imam and the Imam. This is reflected in the fact that if the Imam makes a mistake and after reminding him he still persists in his mistake in his prayers, the congregation has to follow him. If there is no unity in belief, why follow that Imam?

              2 – I have provided ample evidence to the fulfilment of his vision referred to above and also have supported my case with the teachings of the Qur’an whereas your argument is only and nothing but, “The prophecies didn’t fulfil the way I desired, and therefore they did not get fulfilled” which is utterly flawed and has zero basis from the teachings of Qur’an.

              Do remind yourself that the Promised Messiah (as) passed away on his bed, whilst remembering his Creator, Allah Lord of the Worlds. So please don’t spew this false notion. Besides, it only supports our claim that indeed the Promised Messiah (as) came in the Image of Hadhrat Isa (as), thus fulfilling the hadiths regarding the second coming of Jesus (as): The Jews consider their messiah (whom they reject) to have died an accursed death and so do the Muslims consider their messiah (whom they reject) to have died an accursed death.

              3 – Do remind yourself that 1000s upon 1000s of Ahmadi mosques (I believe GTA is soon to have another major Ahmadi mosque), 100s upon 100s of schools, and dozens of hospitals that the Jamaat runs didn’t erupt out of nowhere. The various charities are indeed for nothing but the propagation of Islam and support of the needy. This ‘Mirza bank’ has translated the Holy Qur’an into more languages than the ‘Brelvi bank’, ‘deobandi bank’ and 70 other banks put together, i.e. more that than the rest of the world combined. In other words, just as how Zakat is not blackmail, so is Wassiyyat not blackmail, but for the purposes of serving mankind.

              If you think that having a pre-condition to be buried in a certain graveyard is blackmail, then you might as well call Islam a blackmail. After all, you do have to read your five daily prayers, fast and pay the Zakat as a ‘pre-condition to paradise’.

              • With your each response you are proving my point. Read your last sentence “if there is no unity in belief, why follow that imam?” Exactly. You finally agree that we have different belief and your maseeh mowood with your khalifas states the same thing and label us as out-of-fold of Islam so the case is already settled. And if any imam reads MGA’s written books with open mind and contemplate, set aside notion of believing in him as prophet or reincarnation of Isaa AS, he will think MGA was reincarnation of you know what. After reading and contemplating on his writing even you and your murabbis will revert back to true Islam. Why do you think any one from your jamat will never debate on the character of MGA? Because one can easily deduce his true character from his life and his writings. His follower knows that once somebody starts reading from his books and starts exposing his character, the game is over. As I stated earlier, if you really consider us Muslims, you would have absolutely no hesitation in praying behind our imam, offering janaza prayer for our deceased, allowing your daughters to marry in our families, and not shun those who revert back to true Islam. So don’t try to play this game of telling us that you consider us Muslims. No, you don’t. You know it, we know it. Your actions speak louder than your words.

                I leave it to readers to read Mirza’s so called thousands of visions and decide themselves on its fulfilment. I have full confidence that any sane individual will realize what Mirza was leading upto with his insane visions.

                Offering 5 prayers, paying zakat, performing hajj are forms of worship. Asking somebody as a pre-condition of giving minimum 10% of his property for a burial with Mirza’s company to achieve heaven is definitely a blackmail any way you look at it. Also, Mirza exempted him, his wife and his children from this condition. Smart planner indeed! So his family continues to amass the wealth from the contribution of poor Ahmedi families under this pretext but they don’t have to contribute in anything. He was really thinking ahead for the betterment of his offspring.

              • With your each response you are proving my point. Read your last sentence “if there is no unity in belief, why follow that imam?” Exactly. You finally agree that we have different belief and your maseeh mowood with your khalifas states the same thing and label us as out-of-fold of Islam so the case is already settled. And if any imam reads MGA’s written books with open mind and contemplate, set aside notion of believing in him as prophet or reincarnation of Isaa AS, he will think MGA was reincarnation of you know what. After reading and contemplating on his writing even you and your murabbis will revert back to true Islam. Why do you think any one from your jamat will never debate on the character of MGA? Because one can easily deduce his true character from his life and his writings. His follower knows that once somebody starts reading from his books and starts exposing his character, the game is over. As I stated earlier, if you really consider us Muslims, you would have absolutely no hesitation in praying behind our imam, offering janaza prayer for our deceased, allowing your daughters to marry in our families, and not shun those who revert back to true Islam. So don’t try to play this game of telling us that you consider us Muslims. No, you don’t. You know it, we know it. Your actions speak louder than your words.

                I leave it to readers to read Mirza’s so called thousands of visions and decide themselves on its fulfilment. I have full confidence that any sane individual will realize what Mirza was leading upto with his insane visions.

                Offering 5 prayers, paying zakat, performing hajj are forms of worship. Asking somebody as a pre-condition of giving minimum 10% of his property for a burial with Mirza’s company to achieve heaven is definitely blackmail any way you look at it. Also, Mirza exempted him his wife and his children from this condition. Smart planner indeed! So his family continues to amass the wealth till today from the contribution of poor Ahmedi families under this plan but they themselves don’t have to contribute in anything. He was really thinking ahead for the betterment of his progeny. Wouldn’t you agree?

                • 1 – Having a different belief does not mean that the other person is a non-Muslim in your opinion. If that were the case, then you should first declare all other 72 sects as non-Muslim. The Brelvis should declare Deobandis as non-Muslim and vice versa. Same with the other 70 sects.

                  You took my quote out of context without appreciating what I was trying to explain. I was describing one of the significances of Congregational prayer. That is, it signifies the unity between the followers, which wouldn’t really exist if an Ahmadi Muslim were to pray behind a non-Ahmadi Muslim. Besides, in general the non-Ahmadi Muslim clerics tend to declare Ahmadi Muslims outside the fold of Islam and Kafir and there is a tendency among many to use abusive language (at its worst) towards the Promised Messiah (as) and the Khulafas. Ahmadi Muslims regard all their Prophets and Khulafas with great love, which is beyond even parental love. Would you pray behind Imams that declare your parents non-Muslim, Kafir eventhough you know so otherwise? Would you pray behind those Imams that curse your parents?

                  Nonetheless, you did not support your arguments from the teachings of the Holy Qur’an and the Hadith, whereas I have inumerable times. The Irony is that you always want me to ‘revert to Islam’, but at what cost? The cost is rejecting the teachings of the Holy Qur’an:

                  [4:95] O ye who believe! when you go forth in the cause of Allah, make proper investigation and say not to anyone who greets you with the greeting of peace, ‘Thou art not a believer.’

                  The cost of rejecting the sayings of our beloved master Holy Prophet Muhammad (sa):

                  “Whoever observes Prayer in the same way as we do, and declares our qibla to be his qibla; one who eats from our dhabiha [i.e., the meat of our slaughtered animals] such a one is a Muslim. To protect such a person is a matter of obligation for God and His Messenger. So,[O ye Muslims!] make sure that you do not violate the obligation from God.”

                  The Interesting thing is the whole ‘offical Muslim’ diaspora on this forum is completely SILENT in face of the teachings of Qur’an and Hadith. Yet they want Ahmadis to ‘revert to Islam’.

                  If you could show from the Quran, Hadith that following different Imams implies different religions altogether, then bering your evidence. Otherwise all you are doing is making YOUR judgement as the basis of teachings of Islam. Same goes for Janaza prayers, marriage etc. Why are you SILENT on the teachings of Islam, with respect to who is and who is not a Muslim? I ask again, why are you SILENT? If you are going to ask me to ‘revert to Islam’ at least teach me from the Holy Quran and Hadith. So Ibrahim, tell me what Islam teaches about who is or who is not a Muslim. Back your evidence from Qur’an and Hadith.

                  2 – Yes offering 5 daily prayers, Zakat, etc may be forms of worship, but that doesn’t take away the fact that it is a ‘pre-condition’ to paradise. Thus with your logic it “is definitely blackmail any way you look at it”.

                  According to Islamophobes, Muslim clerics amass wealth through Zakat. You’re arguments are quite a mirror image, aren’t they?

                  • “Say, ‘We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we devote ourselves to Him.’” (Quran, 2:136)

                    The above verse clearly implies that one must believe in ALL prophets to remain muslim. Since we don’t believe in MGA and if he is true prophet, such non-belief automatically moves us out of fold of Islam based on above verse and per your prophet and khalifa’s statements which I produced earlier.

                    I am sure you are aware of the fundamental requirements of Islamic faith. These are

                    Iman-e-Mufassil (or the Detailed declaration of faith)

                    I believe in Allah His Angles, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and in Taqdir, that all good and bad is from Allah the Most High and I believe in the resurrection after death.

                    So you can’t take your cited hadiths in isolation and declare everybody as muslim. I am clearly and openly telling you that Mirza Gulam Ahmed Quadiani was imposter and not a true prophet. If you believe him as a true prophet, it automatically makes me non-muslim. Sure, after all this discussion if you want to call me a muslim, it is your prerogative. However we all know action speaks louder than words and your Jamat’s actions viz. viz. not praying behind our imam, not offering janaza prayer for our deceased, not allowing your daughters to marry in our families, and shunning those who revert back to true Islam are an ample proof in this regard.

                    The main difference between offering zakat in Islam and Mirza’s scheme is that I can give my zakat to any deserving candidate of MY CHOICE. You don’t have that choice. Just try one thing. Stop paying your dues to your Jamaat. Tell them you would prefer to give your hard earned money to somebody who is deserving of your choice. You will find out how long you can last with your Jamaat.

                    In the end I have cut and paste a brilliant article. I request you to read and contemplate on it. I sincerely pray to Allah for yours, mine and whole humanities guidance.

                    by Shaykh Omar Subedar

                    Towards the end of time many major events are to occur as the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم has foretold. Conditions will become extremely intense and humanity will gradually degenerate. Minor signs of the Final Hour will initially appear followed by a sequence of major signs. The Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم stated, “The signs [of the final hour] are [like] beads put together with a string. When the string will break the beads will [fall] one after the other.” [Häkim: 8639]

                    Among the many signs of doomsday which the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has informed us of is the advent of the Mahdi (the Guided One) and the return of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام. The Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “There will certainly be the Mahdi in my nation who will emerge…” [Tirmidhë: 2232]

                    In another narration he declared, “I swear by He in whose hands my soul is, Ibn Maryam عليه السلام shall descend among you with justice and honesty.” [Tirmidhë: 2232]

                    While Muslims continue to await the emergence of these two great figures, a certain faction of the community has laid claim that this prophecy has already been fulfilled over 100 years ago and that today we are living in a post Mahdi and Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام era. This segment of society is known today as the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community which was founded in 1889 by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a person who claimed to be the awaited Mahdi and the promised Messiah himself. The foundations of this group were laid on March 23 1889 when forty people had pledged their allegiance to him and has since spread to various areas of the world.

                    Mirza’s claims were never received well by the general Muslims and have been a cause of great contention throughout the past, particularly in the Indian sub-continent. Today in Canada the group has become quite established in the community and has begun a series of outreach programs to Muslims and non Muslims alike. Because the masses are unaware of the details the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has provided pertaining to the advent of the Mahdi and the second coming of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام they become somewhat confused or even influenced by a member of the Ahmadiyya community when being confronted by them and having certain questions and assertions thrown at them. Hence it is our duty to educate ourselves regarding our creed and beliefs in order to distinguish between truth and falsehood. Thus we would like to take this opportunity to explore the claims of Mirza from his own writings and see how consistent they are with the prophecies of our beloved Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم so that we may be able to determine whether he spoke the truth or not.

                    The Claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

                    It was after 1891 that Mirza began a series of claims that raised eyebrows throughout the Muslim world. The first of them being that he was told through divine revelation that he was the awaited Mahdi and the promised Messiah. He writes in ‘The Narrative of the Two Martyrdoms’ (Tazkirat-ush-Shahadatain):

                    “It was disclosed to me through Divine revelation a few years later that the Messiah that had been promised from the earliest time to this nation and that the last Mahdi who was destined to appear after the deterioration of Islam and who was to be granted direct guidance from God and who was to provide once again the spiritual nourishment, as had been preordained and about whom glad tidings had also been given by the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, himself 1300 years ago, is none other than me. Divine revelations, in this regard, came to me so clearly and persistently that no room for even the least doubt was left in this matter.”

                    He then shares the revelation he allegedly received, which is considerably lengthy. In it ‘God’ revealed to him:

                    · Praise is due to Allah Who has made thee “Jesus son of Mary” and taught thee things which thou did not know before. People say, “Whence and how did you acquire this position?” Tell them: Very Unique is my God and no one can hinder His grace. He cannot be questioned for what He does, but people shall be required to answer for their deeds.

                    · God is He Who has sent His Messenger (i.e. this humble person) with guidance and the religion that is true so that He may cause it to succeed and prevail over all other religions.

                    · Address no plea to Me concerning the wrong-doers for they are surely going to be drowned and they will make a plan and Allah will also plan, and Allah is the best of planners.

                    · And build thou the ark under Our Eyes with the help of Our revelation.

                    When Mirza realized that his claim of being Jesus son of Mary was at odds with the notions held by the general Muslim and Christians alike, he modified his assertion and wrote in the ‘Elucidation of Objectives’ (Taudih-e-Maram),

                    “Muslims and Christians both believe, albeit with some difference, that the Messiah son of Mary was physically raised to the heavens and that he will descend from the skies at some later time. I have already disproved this notion in the first part of this book. I have also pointed out that the ‘Descent’ or the ‘Coming’ does not mean the coming of the Messiah son of Mary; that actually it is a figure of speech signifying the coming of someone resembling the son of Mary; and that, in accordance with Divine intimation and revelation, it is the present writer—my own humble self—to whom it applies.”

                    He further claimed in his book ‘Jesus in India’ that Jesus survived the crucifixion and later migrated to Kashmir, India in order to preach to the ‘Lost Children of Israel’. He later passed away there due to old age and is currently buried in a shrine called Roza Bal, located in the Khanyar district of Srinagar, Kashmir.

                    In conclusion, according to these excerpts, Mirza has declared:

                    a) He is the Awaited Mahdi

                    b) He is the replica of Jesus son of Mary

                    c) He is Allah’s Messenger

                    d) He has been ordered to construct an ark

                    e) A flood will come that will drown all the wrong doers.

                    In order to verify these claims it is imperative that we analyze the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم traditions regarding these matters before reaching any type of conclusion.

                    The Mahdi

                    There are several traditions in which Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم has described the Mahdi (the Guided One). In these traditions the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم has said;

                    · If there was only a day left of this world, Allah would extend it until He would send a man who is from me; or from my family. His name will be the same as my name and his father’s name will be the same as my father’s name (i.e. Muhammad ibn Abdullah). He will fill the world with fairness and justice just as it will be filled with tyranny and injustice. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4282]

                    · This world will not end until the Arabs are ruled by a man from my family. His name will be the same as my name. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4282]

                    · The Mahdi is from my progeny; from the descendents of Fätima. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4284]

                    · The Mahdi is from me. He will have a high forehead and a curved nose. He will fill the world with fairness and justice just as it will be filled with tyranny and injustice and he will rule for seven years. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4285]

                    In one narration the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has provided details on the Mahdi’s advent. He explained, “There will be a dispute following the death of a ruler (khalifa). A man from the residents of Madina will emerge and run to Makka. [Once in Makka] some Makkans will approach him and bring him out against his will. They will then pledge their allegiance to him between the [Black Stone] corner and the Maqäm [of Ibrähëm عليه السلام].

                    An army will be sent against him from Shäm (a region that comprised of Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, the Palestinian territories and Syria in those days), which will be swallowed up [by the earth] in Al Baidä, [a place] between Makka and Madina. When people will witness this [sign] the saints of Shäm and the best people of Iraq will come to him and pledge their allegiance to him.

                    Thereafter a man from the Quraish will arise, whose maternal uncles will be from [the tribe of] Kalb. He will send an army against them (i.e. the Mahdi and those who have pledged their allegiance to him) [to destroy them] however [the Mahdi and his followers] will prevail against them. That [defeated army] will be the forces of Kalb. The true loss will be for he who will fail to witness the spoils of Kalb. The Mahdi will distribute the wealth [acquired from the battle] and will govern the people in accordance to the practice (Sunna) of their Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

                    Islam will become established on the earth and the Mahdi will remain for seven years. He will then die and the Muslims will offer his funeral prayer. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4286]

                    Upon analysing these narrations it becomes extremely difficult to believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the promised Mahdi for a number of reasons;

                    1. Contrary to the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم words: His name will be the same as my name and his father’s name will be the same as my father’s name (i.e. Muhammad ibn Abdullah), Mirza’s full name was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad son of Mirza Ghulam Murtaza.

                    2. He was neither from the descendants of Fatima رضى الله عنها nor among the progeny of Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, rather he was of Iranian descent, whose forefathers were from the tribe of Barlas; a tribe that lived and ruled in Kish, Sogdiana for 200 years.

                    3. He did not bear the physical features that were described by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, such as having a curved nose etc. nor did he have any authority over the Arabs at any stage of his life. Instead shortly after his claim 34 scholars from Makka and Madina unanimously labelled him an apostate upon being informed by Shaykh Ahmad Rizha Khan about his assertions.

                    4. He was never a resident of Madina nor did he ever run off to Makka. In fact he never even travelled to the holy cities in his life. Hence there was no pledge of allegiance that was given to him between the [Black Stone] corner and the Maqäm [of Ibrähëm عليه السلام] nor was there any army that was sent up against him from Shäm, which was swallowed up by the earth at Al Baidä.

                    5. According to the narration above the Mahdi will be forced against his will to take the pledge of allegiance from people, particularly the Makkans. Mirza on the other hand was never compelled in anyway by anyone to take the oath of allegiance from any community, rather he first published an announcement on December 1, 1888 that God revealed to him that whomsoever seeks true faith and piety, should pledge their allegiance to Mirza so that God may shower His mercy and beneficence on them.

                    Later, on January 12th, 1889 he published another pamphlet in which he laid down ten conditions of the pledge, which were;

                    I. Till the last day of the devotee’s life, the devotee shall abstain from associating any partners with Allah.

                    II. He shall keep away from falsehood, cruelty, adultery, dishonesty, disorder, rebellion and every kind of evil.

                    III. He shall offer prayers (Saläh) five times daily.

                    IV. He shall not inflict injury on any of Allah’s creatures.

                    V. He shall bear every hardship for the sake of Allah.

                    VI. He shall not follow vulgar customs and shall guard himself against evil inclinations.

                    VII. He shall discard pride and haughtiness and shall live in humility & meekness

                    VIII. He shall deem his faith, dignity, and the welfare of Islam to be dearer to him than his own life, wealth and children.

                    IX. He shall have sympathy for all of God’s creatures, and devote his talents to their welfare.

                    X. He shall establish brotherhood with Mirza, obey him in all good things, and firmly adhere to these rules until the last breath of his life.

                    On March 23, 1889 he began taking the oath of allegiance at the house of Sufi Ahmad Jan, in the city of Ludhiana. There he laid the foundation of the Ahmadiyya Movement. On the first day forty people pledged the oath of allegiance to him. Among them were:

                    Maulvi Abdullah Sanori
                    Chaudhry Rustam Ali
                    Munshi Zafar Ahmad
                    Munshi Aroray Khan
                    Munshi Habib ar-Rahman
                    Qazi Zia al-din
                    Mir Inayat Ali

                    Not a single one of these people were from Makka or of Arabian descent.

                    6. Contrary to the narrations, Mirza did not pass away 7 years after taking the initial pledge. He rather lived on for another 19 years and passed away in Lahore on May 26, 1908.

                    In light of all these contradictions, among many more which we have not bothered discussing, one can safely conclude that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was NOT the Mahdi the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم had foretold us about.

                    The Messiah, Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام

                    In respect to what really happened to Ësä عليه السلام Allah explains in the Qur’än, “And [We cursed the People of the Scriptures for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.” [4:157-158]

                    ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abbäs رضى الله عنهما elaborated on the ascension incident by relating, “When Allah intended to uplift Ësä عليه السلام to the sky, Ësä عليه السلام came out to his companions and [at that time] there were 12 companions that were present in the house; He came out to them, not exiting the house while his head was dripping of water and said, “Among you there is a person who will disbelieve in me 12 times before he places his faith in me.”

                    He then proposed, “Which one of you is prepared to bear my [physical] resemblance, be killed in my place and [end up] with me in my rank [in Paradise]?”

                    continued from part 1

                    A young man, who was the youngest among them stood [and offered himself] however Ësä عليه السلام ordered him, “Be seated,” and repeated the proposal [to his companions]. [Again] the young man stood up but Ësä عليه السلام instructed him to sit down and then once again repeated his offer. The young man stood up once more and said, “I [am ready].”
                    Ësä عليه السلام then said, “[In that case] you have been selected.”

                    The young man was then given the [physical] resemblance of Ësä عليه السلام [by Allah] while Ësä عليه السلام ascended from the window of the house to the sky. Later the Jewish pursuers came and seized the [young man] who looked like Ësä عليه السلام and killed him.” [Al Durr al Manthur]

                    Mirza’s claim of Ësä عليه السلام escaping the crucifixion and migrating to Kashmir, where he later passed away is absolutely inconsistent with the aforementioned texts and hence clearly inaccurate and false.

                    Regarding the return of Ësä عليه السلام, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم once explained to his companions while describing Dajjäl (the Anti- Christ), “The Dajjäl is a young man with curly hair. [One] eye of his is blind. I can liken him to ‘Abdul ‘Uzza ibn Qatän. Whoever comes across him from amongst you, he should recite the opening verses of Sura al Kahf upon him. He will emerge from a place between Shäm and Iraq and will spread mischief right and left. O Slaves of Allah! Remain firm [against him].”

                    The companions inquired, “O Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, How long will he stay on earth?”

                    The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم replied, “40 days; a day like a year, a day like a month, a day like a week and the remaining days will be like your [normal] days.”

                    The companions asked, “O Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم, [on] that day that will be like a year; will the prayers of one day be sufficient for us?”

                    He answered, “No, [rather] at that time make calculations [for the timings of the prayers]”

                    The companions then asked, “How quick will be his pace on earth?”

                    He replied, “Like rain that is driven by wind. He will approach a community and invite them [to accept his divinity] and they will believe in him and respond to his call. He will then order the sky [to rain] and consequently it will rain. He will give an order to the earth and subsequently it will bring forth produce. Their herds will return to them in the evening with their humps as high as ever, their udders full and their flanks stretched.

                    He will then go to [another] community and invite them however they will reject his claim [to divinity]. He will then leave them and they will [end up] being afflicted with drought. All of their wealth will be gone from their hands.

                    He will pass by a [land in] ruins and say to it, “Bring forth your treasures.” As a result its treasures will [come out and] follow him like a swarm of bees. Then he will call a man brimming with youth and strike him with a sword. He will cut him in two pieces and place [each piece] as far [from each other] as a target from an archer. He will then summon him and he will come forth with his face gleaming and laughing.

                    While he will be engaged in all of this, Allah will send the Messiah, the son of Mary عليه السلام. He will descend by the white minaret in the east side of Damascus, wearing two garments dyed in saffron placing his hands on the wings of two angels. When he will lower his head [water] will drip [from it] and when he will raise it, drops like pearls will scatter from it. Every disbeliever who will come in contact with his breath will die and his breath will reach as far as he can see.

                    He will then pursue the Dajjäl until he catches him at the gate of Lod [a city located on the Sharon Plain 15kilometers southeast of Tel Aviv in the Center District of Israel] and will then kill him. Thereafter some people, whom Allah had protected from the Dajjäl, will come to Ësä ibn Maryam. He will wipe their faces and inform them of their ranks in Paradise. While he will be busy doing this Allah will suddenly reveal to him, “I have released some slaves of mine, whom no one has the power to fight with. Quickly take my slaves to At-Tur [an Arab neighborhood on the Mount of Olives approximately 1 km east of the Old City of Jerusalem].”

                    Allah will then send [the two communities of] Ya’juj and Ma’juj (i.e. Gog and Magog) who will descend from every slope. The first of them will pass by the Sea of Tiberias [located in the Jordan Great Rift Valley] and drink all its water. [When] the last of them will pass [by it] they will say, “There was once water here.”

                    Allah’s Prophet, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will be put under siege to the extent that a bull’s head to one of them will be better than one hundred dinärs to you today. Allah’s Prophet, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will then beseech Allah. Consequently Allah will send worms in the necks [of Ya’juj and Ma’juj] and as a result they will be killed all at the same time. The Prophet of Allah, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will then descend to the ground and will not find even the space of a hand span that will not be filled with their decayed [bodies] and stench. Allah’s Prophet, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will then beseech Allah and Allah will send birds that will resemble the necks of Bactrian Camels. The birds will carry [their bodies] away and throw them wherever Allah wills. Thereafter Allah will send such rain that no mud house or hut will be sheltered from it. It will cleanse the earth until it leaves it like a mirror. The earth will then be told, “Bring forth your fruits and restore your blessings.”

                    On that day a group of people will eat a portion of a pomegranate and [then] sit in its skins shadow. Milk will be blessed to the extent that [the milk of a] milch camel will suffice a [large] crowd of people, [the milk of a] milch cow will suffice a tribe of people, [the milk of a] milch sheep will suffice a family of people. [Muslim: 7373]

                    In another narration the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام will surely descend as a just judge and a fair leader. He will travel through the mountain passes [of Arabia] as a pilgrim for hajj or `umra and will definitely come to my grave and greet me [with saläm] and I shall respond to him.” [Häkim: 4162]

                    Ibn Al Jawzë has written in his book Al Wafä: ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Amr reported, “Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم mentioned, “Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام will descend to the earth. He will get married and have children. He will remain in the world for 45 years. Thereafter he will pass away and will be buried with me in my grave.”

                    Upon studying all these narrations and comparing them to the life of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad it once again becomes extremely difficult to acknowledge his assertions for the following reasons:

                    1. In all of these narrations there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that a replica of Ësä عليه السلام will appear. Rather the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has reiterated the name of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام several times in the narrations making it very clear that Ësä عليه السلام will be returning in person, not someone like him.

                    2. The Dajjäl which the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم described in the aforementioned narration never emerged during Mirza’s life. Therefore Mirza never had the opportunity to kill him thus fulfilling one of the prime objectives of Ësä’s عليه السلام return. Likewise the two communities of Ya’juj and Ma’juj never appeared and drank the entire Sea of Tiberias rather the sea is still in existence and intact till today.

                    3. Mirza did not descend from the sky with the aid of two angels by the white minaret in the east side of Damascus, as highlighted in the aforementioned narration. Although he did attempt to provide an explanation for some of the points discussed in this narration in his book; Removal of Suspicions (Izala i Awham) he unfortunately failed to address many key issues found within the ĥadëth. For example he wrote regarding Damascus;

                    · Damascus has been used merely in a metaphorical way.

                    · Then He (God) told me that these people were of Yazid’s nature and this town (Qadian) is similar to Damascus. So the Exalted Allah sent this humble one down to this Damascus for a big purpose.

                    In respect to the two garments dyed in saffron which Ësä’s عليه السلام will wear during his return Mirza writes, “I am a permanently sick man and the two yellow sheets which have been mentioned in the traditions as those to be worn by Messiah when he would come down, these two sheets are with me. These according to the science of interpretation of dreams are two ailments. Hence one of these sheets is on my upper part so that headache, giddiness, insomnia and palpitation of the heart come to me in the shape of fits. The other sheet which is the lower part of my body is diabetes which has afflicted me for a long time, so that often I have a hundred urinations during the night and day and due to this frequency of urination I am afflicted with all those ailments of debility caused by such a disease.”

                    Apart from these whimsical interpretations, Mirza never made any mention of;

                    · The Gate of Lod.

                    · The death of the disbelievers upon coming in contact with Ësä’s عليه السلام breath.

                    · The siege Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will be put under at At-Tur.

                    · The infestation of Ya’juj and Ma’juj’s bodies in the land following their death and the cleansing process that will take place thereafter.

                    · The immense blessings of the earth that the people will experience after all this drama.

                    Mirza did nonetheless decide to build a white minaret in his home town of Qadian and even laid it’s foundation on March 13, 1903 however due to a lack of funds its construction was halted. The minaret was continued by Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad on November 27, 1914 and was completed in 1916, eight years after Mirza’s demise. Hence even this action of his was inconsistent with the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم words, as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم informed us that Ësä عليه السلام would descend by the white minaret in the east side of Damascus, not have it constructed.

                    4. Mirza did not live for 45 years after proclaiming to be the replica of Ësä عليه السلام in 1891, rather he only lived for 17 years.

                    5. As mentioned before Mirza never visited the holy lands of Makka and Madina and hence never performed a hajj or an ‘umra in his life nor did he ever have the opportunity to visit the grave of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and greet him by his graveside in person.

                    6. Mirza did not end up getting buried in the same grave as our beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but rather in his home town of Qadian.

                    In conclusion, upon witnessing the tremendous amount of contradictions between Mirza’s life and the Prophets صلى الله عليه وسلم words, one can safely conclude that Mirza’s claim of being the replica of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام is spurious in every shape and form.

                    The Messenger of Allah

                    Of all the claims Mirza made during his life, the claim to prophet hood was undoubtedly the most shocking to the Muslim community. He wrote in The Reality of Revelation (Haqëqatul Wahë), “So of all the people of this nation (ummah), I am the only one who has received this big portion of divine revelation and knowledge about the unseen. All the saints of this nation (ummah) who have preceded me, they were not given such a big share of this bounty. For this reason I alone was chosen to be designated a prophet and none else deserved this title.”

                    This claim particularly stunned the Muslim community because it is in absolute contrast with the verse; Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and the seal of the prophets. (33:40). This verse makes it crystal clear that no prophet is to come after our beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم however the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of today claims that the implication of the ‘seal of prophets’ in aforementioned verse is; Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم brought prophet hood to perfection and was the last law-bearing prophet and the apex of man’s spiritual evolution. New prophets can come but they must be subordinate to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and cannot exceed him in excellence nor alter his teaching or bring any new law or religion.

                    For the general Muslims this interpretation becomes quite difficult to digest, especially when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has thoroughly explained the meaning of the ‘seal of the prophets’ in the following traditions:

                    · My example and the example of the Prophets before me are like the example of a man who built a house and made it nice and beautiful except for the place of one brick in a corner. People begin to go around it, marvel it and say, “Why has this brick not been put in its place?” I am that brick and I am the seal / last of the prophets. (Bukhari:3535)

                    · …and they say, “Will you not put a brick here due to which your structure will be completed?” Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “ I am the brick” (Muslim:5960)

                    · …I have come and finished the (chain of) Prophets (Muslim:5963)

                    · Indeed the message and prophet hood has come to an end; hence there will be no messenger or prophet after me. (Tirmidhi:2272)

                    The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did further clarify on one occasion, “Had there been a prophet after me it would have been Umar ibn al Khattab.” (Tirmidhë: 3686). Every Muslim acknowledges that Umar ibn al Khattab was never a prophet hence it becomes quite evident that prophet hood has now come to a complete halt. Thus the claim made by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of today that new prophets can come but they must be subordinate to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is merely a fabricated notion and absolutely contradictive to the authentic teachings of Islam.

                    The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم however did warn us:

                    · In my nation there will be 27 liars and impostors (Dajjäls). Among them will be 4 women. I am definitely the last of the prophets. There will be no prophet after me. (Musnad Ahmad: 23251)

                    · The [final] hour will not be established until approximately 30 liars and imposters (Dajjäls) will be sent. Each one of them will claim to be the Messenger of Allah. (Bukhäri: 7121)

                    Consequently it wouldn’t be farfetched to believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was definitely one of those 27.

                    The Ark and the Flood

                    There is a striking resemblance between the ‘revelation’ Mirza received i.e.

                    · Address no plea to Me concerning the wrong-doers for they are surely going to be drowned and they will make a plan and Allah will also plan, and Allah is the best of planners.

                    · And build thou the ark under Our Eyes with the help of Our revelation.

                    And the following verses of the Qur’an:

                    · And it was revealed to Noah that, “No one will believe from your people except those who have already believed, so do not be distressed by what they have been doing.

                    · And construct the ship under Our observation and Our inspiration and do not address Me concerning those who have wronged; indeed, they are [to be] drowned.”[11:36-37]

                    Nōĥ عليه السلام constructed the ark as instructed and upon the appointed time Allah drowned all the wrongdoers, who were none other than the disbelievers. According to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community all non Ahmadees are also disbelievers. Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad, the second caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the eldest son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from his second wife declared in his book ‘The Truth about the Split’, “…the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his [i.e. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s] bai’at formally, wherever they may be, are Käfirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit.”

                    Hence this implies that every Muslim who did not pledge their allegiance to Mirza was a wrongdoer and thus up for Allah’s punishment of being drowned. Ironically there are absolutely no records of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad even attempting to execute this ‘divine’ directive and 100 years after his demise we the ‘wrongdoers’ are still waiting to be drowned.

                    In conclusion the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad have no connection with the truth whatsoever and it is our duty that we warn our community about his deviant teachings in order to safeguard them from being mislead and falling astray.

                    May Allah protect us all. Ameen

                  • “Say, ‘We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we devote ourselves to Him.’” (Quran, 2:136)

                    The above verse clearly implies that one must believe in ALL prophets to remain muslim. Since we don’t believe in MGA and if he is true prophet, such non-belief automatically moves us out of fold of Islam based on above verse and per your prophet and khalifa’s statements which I produced earlier.

                    I am sure you are aware of the fundamental requirements of Islamic faith. These are

                    Iman-e-Mufassil (or the Detailed declaration of faith)

                    I believe in Allah His Angles, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and in Taqdir, that all good and bad is from Allah the Most High and I believe in the resurrection after death.

                    So you can’t take your cited hadiths in isolation and declare everybody as muslim. I am clearly and openly telling you that Mirza Gulam Ahmed Quadiani was imposter and not a true prophet. Since you believe him as a true prophet, it automatically makes me a non-muslim for you. Since I don’t believe in the prophet you believe in and believing in prophet is among the fundamental requirements of being a muslim, you and me can’t be in the same religion. Sure, after such clear explanation if you want to call me a muslim, it is your prerogative. However we all know action speaks louder than words and your Jamat’s actions viz. viz. not praying behind our imam, not offering janaza prayer for our deceased, not allowing your daughters to marry in our families, and shunning those who revert back to true Islam are an ample proof in this regard.

                    Let me repeat why your Jamaat would not like to call us non-muslim in public instead of your prophet’s and Khalifa’s verdict labelling us non-muslim. It is a public relation exercise. If you label us same as we labelled you, then automatically Pakistan’s decision to label you as non-muslim becomes justified and your argument against them goes out of window. Also, it is easy to deceive illiterate Muslims to convert to your religion by suggesting that hey, there is not much difference between us and them. It is a shell game being played by your Jamaat.

                    The main difference between offering zakat in Islam and Mirza’s scheme is that I can give my zakat to any deserving candidate of MY CHOICE. YOU DON’T HAVE THIS CHOICE. Just try one thing. Stop paying your dues to your Jamaat. Tell them you would prefer to give your hard earned money to somebody of your choice and who is more deserving. You will find out how long you can last with your Jamaat.

                    In the end I have copied and pasted a brilliant article “The Mahdi, The Messiah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad” by Shaykh Omar Subedar in the comment section

                    I request you to read and contemplate on it. I sincerely pray to Allah for yours, mine and whole humanities guidance.

                  • I do not have time to response to your copy/paste allegations. I can equally copy/paste responses, which I know you are unlikely to read. However I shall respond to the verse that you have presented:

                    Namely (2:136)

                    This verse in our context of discussion does not add anything to the verse that I presented which shows that it is obligatory to accept all Prophets and Messengers as true. However as I said before we have the verse:

                    [4:95] O ye who believe! when you go forth in the cause of Allah, make proper investigation and say not to anyone who greets you with the greeting of peace, ‘Thou art not a believer.’

                    Which you cannot reject. You have added nothing to the debate. THerefore I present my response which I copy and paste from above.

                    The verses therefore tells us that in general If someone rejects a messenger of Allah, say Hadhrat Moses (as), we cannot declare him to be kafir.

                    To summarize the two verses we (humans) can say and uphold a belief that rejecting messengers leads one to kufr, but we cannot say and declare a person to be kafir. Similarly, we Ahmadi Muslims point out a beautiful point which is designed to promote dignified social relations between people of different beliefs. Though people may believe in a particular person as a prophet, eg: ahmadi muslims believe in Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) and indeed, the implication of that belief and the verse of the Qur’an quoted earlier (4:151-152), is that those who do not accept the prophet they believe in, are disbelievers. But believers are not, and I repeat, not permitted by the above quoted verse of the Qur’an (4:95) to go around calling other people kafir nor to hold it in their heart that they are, for Allah alone is Malik e Yaumideen-the Master of the Judgement.

  11. Nice and healthy debate up there. I appreciate Muslim Brother’s replies as he was the one representing Ahmadiyya vs 10 others. Truth is that yes Anwar Sadat has good presentation skills but unfortunately he was talking totally off the topic and couln’t mention verses from Quran or any Ahdith as such. Where he said that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as. took money for 50 books and said it is only difference of “0”, this alone is totally fabricated and I can politely request to people of Allah that please when in debates in the name of Allah, try to atleast speak truth even if you can’t stick to the topic. There was another brother saying that we are kafirs and barred from Madina, brother AbdelAziz, please tell me who gave you or other Mullah’s any authority to decide one’s religion. And if Saudi Govt is to decide our faith than they have enough problems to fix before they can decide who is good for Hajj. It is in Saudi Arabia so we abide by the law and don’t go to Hajj. We speak truth and say we are Ahmadis’, if any one want to barr us from Hajj than let it be but not in million years would I lie to say that i’m not an Ahmadi for Hajj, I have faith in Allah and Allah is all knowing and all seeing. Brother i don’t accept anyone’s decision regarding us because I would only listen to Allah (Quran) and prophet Muhammad saw (Ahadith and Sunnah). When you say that everyone has declared us kafir, it makes me happy that haith is fulfilled where prophet Muhammad saw said that 72 sects will be against 1 sect and hose 72 would be naari and the only sect that they are after would be true sect (Naji..). May Allah help us all and guide us to true path. Ameen

    • The story is not fabricated. Here is the proof.

      Twenty five years later, after publishing the fifth volume of Baraheen-e-Ahmadiyyah, Mirza Ghulam declared:

      “This is the same Baraheen-e-Ahmadiyyah, which had already been published in four volumes. The fifth volume has been now published. It was earlier promised to publish fifty volumes, but they are to be content with only five, instead of the fifty we promised. Since there is only a dot difference between five and fifty, with these five our promise has been fulfilled.”
      (Preface, Baraheen-e-Ahmadiyya, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 21, P. 9;
      Preface, Baraheen-e-Ahmadiyya, Vol. 5, P. 7

      You state ” It is in Saudi Arabia so we abide by the law and don’t go to Hajj. We speak truth and say we are Ahmadis’”. Really? Then how this year Ansar Raza went for Hajj? Didn’t he lie to get an entry?

      Regarding your claim of true sect as an explanation of Hadith, no, you are not a sect of Islam but you follow completely different religion with MGA as your prophet, maseeh mowood etc. So your claim has no validity in our eyes.

  12. At the end of the day, everything is clear. Primarily the debate itself. More so by the discussion among the Muslim brothers Ibrahim and Hamza and the Ahmadi brother called Muslim Brother. Hope and pray the educated and thinking Ahmadi youth visit this site evaluate all. May Allah guide the mislead. Aameen

  13. by Shaykh Omar Subedar

    “The Mahdi, The Messiah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad” by Shaykh Omar Subedar

    Towards the end of time many major events are to occur as the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم has foretold. Conditions will become extremely intense and humanity will gradually degenerate. Minor signs of the Final Hour will initially appear followed by a sequence of major signs. The Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم stated, “The signs [of the final hour] are [like] beads put together with a string. When the string will break the beads will [fall] one after the other.” [Häkim: 8639]

    Among the many signs of doomsday which the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has informed us of is the advent of the Mahdi (the Guided One) and the return of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام. The Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “There will certainly be the Mahdi in my nation who will emerge…” [Tirmidhë: 2232]

    In another narration he declared, “I swear by He in whose hands my soul is, Ibn Maryam عليه السلام shall descend among you with justice and honesty.” [Tirmidhë: 2232]

    While Muslims continue to await the emergence of these two great figures, a certain faction of the community has laid claim that this prophecy has already been fulfilled over 100 years ago and that today we are living in a post Mahdi and Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام era. This segment of society is known today as the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community which was founded in 1889 by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a person who claimed to be the awaited Mahdi and the promised Messiah himself. The foundations of this group were laid on March 23 1889 when forty people had pledged their allegiance to him and has since spread to various areas of the world.

    Mirza’s claims were never received well by the general Muslims and have been a cause of great contention throughout the past, particularly in the Indian sub-continent. Today in Canada the group has become quite established in the community and has begun a series of outreach programs to Muslims and non Muslims alike. Because the masses are unaware of the details the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has provided pertaining to the advent of the Mahdi and the second coming of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام they become somewhat confused or even influenced by a member of the Ahmadiyya community when being confronted by them and having certain questions and assertions thrown at them. Hence it is our duty to educate ourselves regarding our creed and beliefs in order to distinguish between truth and falsehood. Thus we would like to take this opportunity to explore the claims of Mirza from his own writings and see how consistent they are with the prophecies of our beloved Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم so that we may be able to determine whether he spoke the truth or not.

    The Claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

    It was after 1891 that Mirza began a series of claims that raised eyebrows throughout the Muslim world. The first of them being that he was told through divine revelation that he was the awaited Mahdi and the promised Messiah. He writes in ‘The Narrative of the Two Martyrdoms’ (Tazkirat-ush-Shahadatain):

    “It was disclosed to me through Divine revelation a few years later that the Messiah that had been promised from the earliest time to this nation and that the last Mahdi who was destined to appear after the deterioration of Islam and who was to be granted direct guidance from God and who was to provide once again the spiritual nourishment, as had been preordained and about whom glad tidings had also been given by the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, himself 1300 years ago, is none other than me. Divine revelations, in this regard, came to me so clearly and persistently that no room for even the least doubt was left in this matter.”

    He then shares the revelation he allegedly received, which is considerably lengthy. In it ‘God’ revealed to him:

    · Praise is due to Allah Who has made thee “Jesus son of Mary” and taught thee things which thou did not know before. People say, “Whence and how did you acquire this position?” Tell them: Very Unique is my God and no one can hinder His grace. He cannot be questioned for what He does, but people shall be required to answer for their deeds.

    · God is He Who has sent His Messenger (i.e. this humble person) with guidance and the religion that is true so that He may cause it to succeed and prevail over all other religions.

    · Address no plea to Me concerning the wrong-doers for they are surely going to be drowned and they will make a plan and Allah will also plan, and Allah is the best of planners.

    · And build thou the ark under Our Eyes with the help of Our revelation.

    When Mirza realized that his claim of being Jesus son of Mary was at odds with the notions held by the general Muslim and Christians alike, he modified his assertion and wrote in the ‘Elucidation of Objectives’ (Taudih-e-Maram),

    “Muslims and Christians both believe, albeit with some difference, that the Messiah son of Mary was physically raised to the heavens and that he will descend from the skies at some later time. I have already disproved this notion in the first part of this book. I have also pointed out that the ‘Descent’ or the ‘Coming’ does not mean the coming of the Messiah son of Mary; that actually it is a figure of speech signifying the coming of someone resembling the son of Mary; and that, in accordance with Divine intimation and revelation, it is the present writer—my own humble self—to whom it applies.”

    He further claimed in his book ‘Jesus in India’ that Jesus survived the crucifixion and later migrated to Kashmir, India in order to preach to the ‘Lost Children of Israel’. He later passed away there due to old age and is currently buried in a shrine called Roza Bal, located in the Khanyar district of Srinagar, Kashmir.

    In conclusion, according to these excerpts, Mirza has declared:

    a) He is the Awaited Mahdi

    b) He is the replica of Jesus son of Mary

    c) He is Allah’s Messenger

    d) He has been ordered to construct an ark

    e) A flood will come that will drown all the wrong doers.

    In order to verify these claims it is imperative that we analyze the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم traditions regarding these matters before reaching any type of conclusion.

    The Mahdi

    There are several traditions in which Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم has described the Mahdi (the Guided One). In these traditions the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم has said;

    · If there was only a day left of this world, Allah would extend it until He would send a man who is from me; or from my family. His name will be the same as my name and his father’s name will be the same as my father’s name (i.e. Muhammad ibn Abdullah). He will fill the world with fairness and justice just as it will be filled with tyranny and injustice. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4282]

    · This world will not end until the Arabs are ruled by a man from my family. His name will be the same as my name. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4282]

    · The Mahdi is from my progeny; from the descendents of Fätima. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4284]

    · The Mahdi is from me. He will have a high forehead and a curved nose. He will fill the world with fairness and justice just as it will be filled with tyranny and injustice and he will rule for seven years. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4285]

    In one narration the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has provided details on the Mahdi’s advent. He explained, “There will be a dispute following the death of a ruler (khalifa). A man from the residents of Madina will emerge and run to Makka. [Once in Makka] some Makkans will approach him and bring him out against his will. They will then pledge their allegiance to him between the [Black Stone] corner and the Maqäm [of Ibrähëm عليه السلام].

    An army will be sent against him from Shäm (a region that comprised of Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, the Palestinian territories and Syria in those days), which will be swallowed up [by the earth] in Al Baidä, [a place] between Makka and Madina. When people will witness this [sign] the saints of Shäm and the best people of Iraq will come to him and pledge their allegiance to him.

    Thereafter a man from the Quraish will arise, whose maternal uncles will be from [the tribe of] Kalb. He will send an army against them (i.e. the Mahdi and those who have pledged their allegiance to him) [to destroy them] however [the Mahdi and his followers] will prevail against them. That [defeated army] will be the forces of Kalb. The true loss will be for he who will fail to witness the spoils of Kalb. The Mahdi will distribute the wealth [acquired from the battle] and will govern the people in accordance to the practice (Sunna) of their Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

    Islam will become established on the earth and the Mahdi will remain for seven years. He will then die and the Muslims will offer his funeral prayer. [Sunan Abu Däwōd: 4286]

    Upon analysing these narrations it becomes extremely difficult to believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the promised Mahdi for a number of reasons;

    1. Contrary to the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم words: His name will be the same as my name and his father’s name will be the same as my father’s name (i.e. Muhammad ibn Abdullah), Mirza’s full name was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad son of Mirza Ghulam Murtaza.

    2. He was neither from the descendants of Fatima رضى الله عنها nor among the progeny of Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, rather he was of Iranian descent, whose forefathers were from the tribe of Barlas; a tribe that lived and ruled in Kish, Sogdiana for 200 years.

    3. He did not bear the physical features that were described by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, such as having a curved nose etc. nor did he have any authority over the Arabs at any stage of his life. Instead shortly after his claim 34 scholars from Makka and Madina unanimously labelled him an apostate upon being informed by Shaykh Ahmad Rizha Khan about his assertions.

    4. He was never a resident of Madina nor did he ever run off to Makka. In fact he never even travelled to the holy cities in his life. Hence there was no pledge of allegiance that was given to him between the [Black Stone] corner and the Maqäm [of Ibrähëm عليه السلام] nor was there any army that was sent up against him from Shäm, which was swallowed up by the earth at Al Baidä.

    5. According to the narration above the Mahdi will be forced against his will to take the pledge of allegiance from people, particularly the Makkans. Mirza on the other hand was never compelled in anyway by anyone to take the oath of allegiance from any community, rather he first published an announcement on December 1, 1888 that God revealed to him that whomsoever seeks true faith and piety, should pledge their allegiance to Mirza so that God may shower His mercy and beneficence on them.

    Later, on January 12th, 1889 he published another pamphlet in which he laid down ten conditions of the pledge, which were;

    I. Till the last day of the devotee’s life, the devotee shall abstain from associating any partners with Allah.

    II. He shall keep away from falsehood, cruelty, adultery, dishonesty, disorder, rebellion and every kind of evil.

    III. He shall offer prayers (Saläh) five times daily.

    IV. He shall not inflict injury on any of Allah’s creatures.

    V. He shall bear every hardship for the sake of Allah.

    VI. He shall not follow vulgar customs and shall guard himself against evil inclinations.

    VII. He shall discard pride and haughtiness and shall live in humility & meekness

    VIII. He shall deem his faith, dignity, and the welfare of Islam to be dearer to him than his own life, wealth and children.

    IX. He shall have sympathy for all of God’s creatures, and devote his talents to their welfare.

    X. He shall establish brotherhood with Mirza, obey him in all good things, and firmly adhere to these rules until the last breath of his life.

    On March 23, 1889 he began taking the oath of allegiance at the house of Sufi Ahmad Jan, in the city of Ludhiana. There he laid the foundation of the Ahmadiyya Movement. On the first day forty people pledged the oath of allegiance to him. Among them were:

    Maulvi Abdullah Sanori
    Chaudhry Rustam Ali
    Munshi Zafar Ahmad
    Munshi Aroray Khan
    Munshi Habib ar-Rahman
    Qazi Zia al-din
    Mir Inayat Ali

    Not a single one of these people were from Makka or of Arabian descent.

    6. Contrary to the narrations, Mirza did not pass away 7 years after taking the initial pledge. He rather lived on for another 19 years and passed away in Lahore on May 26, 1908.

    In light of all these contradictions, among many more which we have not bothered discussing, one can safely conclude that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was NOT the Mahdi the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم had foretold us about.

    The Messiah, Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام

    In respect to what really happened to Ësä عليه السلام Allah explains in the Qur’än, “And [We cursed the People of the Scriptures for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.” [4:157-158]

    ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abbäs رضى الله عنهما elaborated on the ascension incident by relating, “When Allah intended to uplift Ësä عليه السلام to the sky, Ësä عليه السلام came out to his companions and [at that time] there were 12 companions that were present in the house; He came out to them, not exiting the house while his head was dripping of water and said, “Among you there is a person who will disbelieve in me 12 times before he places his faith in me.”

    He then proposed, “Which one of you is prepared to bear my [physical] resemblance, be killed in my place and [end up] with me in my rank [in Paradise]?”

    continued from part 1

    A young man, who was the youngest among them stood [and offered himself] however Ësä عليه السلام ordered him, “Be seated,” and repeated the proposal [to his companions]. [Again] the young man stood up but Ësä عليه السلام instructed him to sit down and then once again repeated his offer. The young man stood up once more and said, “I [am ready].”
    Ësä عليه السلام then said, “[In that case] you have been selected.”

    The young man was then given the [physical] resemblance of Ësä عليه السلام [by Allah] while Ësä عليه السلام ascended from the window of the house to the sky. Later the Jewish pursuers came and seized the [young man] who looked like Ësä عليه السلام and killed him.” [Al Durr al Manthur]

    Mirza’s claim of Ësä عليه السلام escaping the crucifixion and migrating to Kashmir, where he later passed away is absolutely inconsistent with the aforementioned texts and hence clearly inaccurate and false.

    Regarding the return of Ësä عليه السلام, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم once explained to his companions while describing Dajjäl (the Anti- Christ), “The Dajjäl is a young man with curly hair. [One] eye of his is blind. I can liken him to ‘Abdul ‘Uzza ibn Qatän. Whoever comes across him from amongst you, he should recite the opening verses of Sura al Kahf upon him. He will emerge from a place between Shäm and Iraq and will spread mischief right and left. O Slaves of Allah! Remain firm [against him].”

    The companions inquired, “O Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, How long will he stay on earth?”

    The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم replied, “40 days; a day like a year, a day like a month, a day like a week and the remaining days will be like your [normal] days.”

    The companions asked, “O Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم, [on] that day that will be like a year; will the prayers of one day be sufficient for us?”

    He answered, “No, [rather] at that time make calculations [for the timings of the prayers]”

    The companions then asked, “How quick will be his pace on earth?”

    He replied, “Like rain that is driven by wind. He will approach a community and invite them [to accept his divinity] and they will believe in him and respond to his call. He will then order the sky [to rain] and consequently it will rain. He will give an order to the earth and subsequently it will bring forth produce. Their herds will return to them in the evening with their humps as high as ever, their udders full and their flanks stretched.

    He will then go to [another] community and invite them however they will reject his claim [to divinity]. He will then leave them and they will [end up] being afflicted with drought. All of their wealth will be gone from their hands.

    He will pass by a [land in] ruins and say to it, “Bring forth your treasures.” As a result its treasures will [come out and] follow him like a swarm of bees. Then he will call a man brimming with youth and strike him with a sword. He will cut him in two pieces and place [each piece] as far [from each other] as a target from an archer. He will then summon him and he will come forth with his face gleaming and laughing.

    While he will be engaged in all of this, Allah will send the Messiah, the son of Mary عليه السلام. He will descend by the white minaret in the east side of Damascus, wearing two garments dyed in saffron placing his hands on the wings of two angels. When he will lower his head [water] will drip [from it] and when he will raise it, drops like pearls will scatter from it. Every disbeliever who will come in contact with his breath will die and his breath will reach as far as he can see.

    He will then pursue the Dajjäl until he catches him at the gate of Lod [a city located on the Sharon Plain 15kilometers southeast of Tel Aviv in the Center District of Israel] and will then kill him. Thereafter some people, whom Allah had protected from the Dajjäl, will come to Ësä ibn Maryam. He will wipe their faces and inform them of their ranks in Paradise. While he will be busy doing this Allah will suddenly reveal to him, “I have released some slaves of mine, whom no one has the power to fight with. Quickly take my slaves to At-Tur [an Arab neighborhood on the Mount of Olives approximately 1 km east of the Old City of Jerusalem].”

    Allah will then send [the two communities of] Ya’juj and Ma’juj (i.e. Gog and Magog) who will descend from every slope. The first of them will pass by the Sea of Tiberias [located in the Jordan Great Rift Valley] and drink all its water. [When] the last of them will pass [by it] they will say, “There was once water here.”

    Allah’s Prophet, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will be put under siege to the extent that a bull’s head to one of them will be better than one hundred dinärs to you today. Allah’s Prophet, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will then beseech Allah. Consequently Allah will send worms in the necks [of Ya’juj and Ma’juj] and as a result they will be killed all at the same time. The Prophet of Allah, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will then descend to the ground and will not find even the space of a hand span that will not be filled with their decayed [bodies] and stench. Allah’s Prophet, Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will then beseech Allah and Allah will send birds that will resemble the necks of Bactrian Camels. The birds will carry [their bodies] away and throw them wherever Allah wills. Thereafter Allah will send such rain that no mud house or hut will be sheltered from it. It will cleanse the earth until it leaves it like a mirror. The earth will then be told, “Bring forth your fruits and restore your blessings.”

    On that day a group of people will eat a portion of a pomegranate and [then] sit in its skins shadow. Milk will be blessed to the extent that [the milk of a] milch camel will suffice a [large] crowd of people, [the milk of a] milch cow will suffice a tribe of people, [the milk of a] milch sheep will suffice a family of people. [Muslim: 7373]

    In another narration the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام will surely descend as a just judge and a fair leader. He will travel through the mountain passes [of Arabia] as a pilgrim for hajj or `umra and will definitely come to my grave and greet me [with saläm] and I shall respond to him.” [Häkim: 4162]

    Ibn Al Jawzë has written in his book Al Wafä: ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Amr reported, “Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم mentioned, “Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام will descend to the earth. He will get married and have children. He will remain in the world for 45 years. Thereafter he will pass away and will be buried with me in my grave.”

    Upon studying all these narrations and comparing them to the life of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad it once again becomes extremely difficult to acknowledge his assertions for the following reasons:

    1. In all of these narrations there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that a replica of Ësä عليه السلام will appear. Rather the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has reiterated the name of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام several times in the narrations making it very clear that Ësä عليه السلام will be returning in person, not someone like him.

    2. The Dajjäl which the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم described in the aforementioned narration never emerged during Mirza’s life. Therefore Mirza never had the opportunity to kill him thus fulfilling one of the prime objectives of Ësä’s عليه السلام return. Likewise the two communities of Ya’juj and Ma’juj never appeared and drank the entire Sea of Tiberias rather the sea is still in existence and intact till today.

    3. Mirza did not descend from the sky with the aid of two angels by the white minaret in the east side of Damascus, as highlighted in the aforementioned narration. Although he did attempt to provide an explanation for some of the points discussed in this narration in his book; Removal of Suspicions (Izala i Awham) he unfortunately failed to address many key issues found within the ĥadëth. For example he wrote regarding Damascus;

    · Damascus has been used merely in a metaphorical way.

    · Then He (God) told me that these people were of Yazid’s nature and this town (Qadian) is similar to Damascus. So the Exalted Allah sent this humble one down to this Damascus for a big purpose.

    In respect to the two garments dyed in saffron which Ësä’s عليه السلام will wear during his return Mirza writes, “I am a permanently sick man and the two yellow sheets which have been mentioned in the traditions as those to be worn by Messiah when he would come down, these two sheets are with me. These according to the science of interpretation of dreams are two ailments. Hence one of these sheets is on my upper part so that headache, giddiness, insomnia and palpitation of the heart come to me in the shape of fits. The other sheet which is the lower part of my body is diabetes which has afflicted me for a long time, so that often I have a hundred urinations during the night and day and due to this frequency of urination I am afflicted with all those ailments of debility caused by such a disease.”

    Apart from these whimsical interpretations, Mirza never made any mention of;

    · The Gate of Lod.

    · The death of the disbelievers upon coming in contact with Ësä’s عليه السلام breath.

    · The siege Ësä عليه السلام and his companions will be put under at At-Tur.

    · The infestation of Ya’juj and Ma’juj’s bodies in the land following their death and the cleansing process that will take place thereafter.

    · The immense blessings of the earth that the people will experience after all this drama.

    Mirza did nonetheless decide to build a white minaret in his home town of Qadian and even laid it’s foundation on March 13, 1903 however due to a lack of funds its construction was halted. The minaret was continued by Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad on November 27, 1914 and was completed in 1916, eight years after Mirza’s demise. Hence even this action of his was inconsistent with the Prophet’s صلى الله عليه وسلم words, as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم informed us that Ësä عليه السلام would descend by the white minaret in the east side of Damascus, not have it constructed.

    4. Mirza did not live for 45 years after proclaiming to be the replica of Ësä عليه السلام in 1891, rather he only lived for 17 years.

    5. As mentioned before Mirza never visited the holy lands of Makka and Madina and hence never performed a hajj or an ‘umra in his life nor did he ever have the opportunity to visit the grave of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and greet him by his graveside in person.

    6. Mirza did not end up getting buried in the same grave as our beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but rather in his home town of Qadian.

    In conclusion, upon witnessing the tremendous amount of contradictions between Mirza’s life and the Prophets صلى الله عليه وسلم words, one can safely conclude that Mirza’s claim of being the replica of Ësä ibn Maryam عليه السلام is spurious in every shape and form.

    The Messenger of Allah

    Of all the claims Mirza made during his life, the claim to prophet hood was undoubtedly the most shocking to the Muslim community. He wrote in The Reality of Revelation (Haqëqatul Wahë), “So of all the people of this nation (ummah), I am the only one who has received this big portion of divine revelation and knowledge about the unseen. All the saints of this nation (ummah) who have preceded me, they were not given such a big share of this bounty. For this reason I alone was chosen to be designated a prophet and none else deserved this title.”

    This claim particularly stunned the Muslim community because it is in absolute contrast with the verse; Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and the seal of the prophets. (33:40). This verse makes it crystal clear that no prophet is to come after our beloved Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم however the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of today claims that the implication of the ‘seal of prophets’ in aforementioned verse is; Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم brought prophet hood to perfection and was the last law-bearing prophet and the apex of man’s spiritual evolution. New prophets can come but they must be subordinate to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and cannot exceed him in excellence nor alter his teaching or bring any new law or religion.

    For the general Muslims this interpretation becomes quite difficult to digest, especially when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has thoroughly explained the meaning of the ‘seal of the prophets’ in the following traditions:

    · My example and the example of the Prophets before me are like the example of a man who built a house and made it nice and beautiful except for the place of one brick in a corner. People begin to go around it, marvel it and say, “Why has this brick not been put in its place?” I am that brick and I am the seal / last of the prophets. (Bukhari:3535)

    · …and they say, “Will you not put a brick here due to which your structure will be completed?” Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said, “ I am the brick” (Muslim:5960)

    · …I have come and finished the (chain of) Prophets (Muslim:5963)

    · Indeed the message and prophet hood has come to an end; hence there will be no messenger or prophet after me. (Tirmidhi:2272)

    The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did further clarify on one occasion, “Had there been a prophet after me it would have been Umar ibn al Khattab.” (Tirmidhë: 3686). Every Muslim acknowledges that Umar ibn al Khattab was never a prophet hence it becomes quite evident that prophet hood has now come to a complete halt. Thus the claim made by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of today that new prophets can come but they must be subordinate to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is merely a fabricated notion and absolutely contradictive to the authentic teachings of Islam.

    The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم however did warn us:

    · In my nation there will be 27 liars and impostors (Dajjäls). Among them will be 4 women. I am definitely the last of the prophets. There will be no prophet after me. (Musnad Ahmad: 23251)

    · The [final] hour will not be established until approximately 30 liars and imposters (Dajjäls) will be sent. Each one of them will claim to be the Messenger of Allah. (Bukhäri: 7121)

    Consequently it wouldn’t be farfetched to believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was definitely one of those 27.

    The Ark and the Flood

    There is a striking resemblance between the ‘revelation’ Mirza received i.e.

    · Address no plea to Me concerning the wrong-doers for they are surely going to be drowned and they will make a plan and Allah will also plan, and Allah is the best of planners.

    · And build thou the ark under Our Eyes with the help of Our revelation.

    And the following verses of the Qur’an:

    · And it was revealed to Noah that, “No one will believe from your people except those who have already believed, so do not be distressed by what they have been doing.

    · And construct the ship under Our observation and Our inspiration and do not address Me concerning those who have wronged; indeed, they are [to be] drowned.”[11:36-37]

    Nōĥ عليه السلام constructed the ark as instructed and upon the appointed time Allah drowned all the wrongdoers, who were none other than the disbelievers. According to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community all non Ahmadees are also disbelievers. Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad, the second caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the eldest son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from his second wife declared in his book ‘The Truth about the Split’, “…the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his [i.e. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s] bai’at formally, wherever they may be, are Käfirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit.”

    Hence this implies that every Muslim who did not pledge their allegiance to Mirza was a wrongdoer and thus up for Allah’s punishment of being drowned. Ironically there are absolutely no records of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad even attempting to execute this ‘divine’ directive and 100 years after his demise we the ‘wrongdoers’ are still waiting to be drowned.

    In conclusion the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad have no connection with the truth whatsoever and it is our duty that we warn our community about his deviant teachings in order to safeguard them from being mislead and falling astray.

    May Allah protect us all. Ameen

  14. @Response to “muslim brother’s comments of Jan 26”

    This debate was not about developing social relations and harmony among communities. It was not about calling somebody a kafir or not because in that case MGA and your khalifas have already labelled as hardened kafirs.

    “It is our obligation that we do not consider non-ahmadis as muslims and do not pray behind them, because for us they have rejected one prophet (Mirza Ghulam) of God. This is a religious matter and no one has any right to do anything in it.” (Anwar-e-Khilafat, by Mirza Mahmood, Khalifa 2, p.90)

    “All muslims who are not included in the initiation of Maseeh Mowood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mowood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs.” (Aina-e-Sadaqat, by Mirza Mahmood, 2nd Khalifa, p.35)

    “Every one who accepts Moses but not Eesa or accepts Eesa but not Mohammad or accepts Mohammad but not Maseeh Mowood, he is not only Kafir but a hardened Kafir and is out of the fold of Islam. (Kalimat-alFasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad s/o Mirza Ghulam

    The debate subject was “does Quadianis and main stream Muslims share the same faith?”. Since Allah commands us to believe in all prophets as a fundamental requirement of faith and we believe in the light of Quran and Hadith that Mirza Gulam was not a true prophet of Islam but an imposter, and you believe in him as a true prophet, we don’t share the same faith. You belong to a different religion because you differ in fundamental belief from us.

    The reasons are abound why MGA can’t be a true prophet of Islam and Shaikh Umar (reproduced above) has provided some lucid arguments in the light of Quran and Hadith in this regard. Of course if you are hell-bent on believing in Mirza’s thousands of dreams, visions, fairy-tales and whimsical interpretations devoid of reality, nobody can stop you from believing in it, however sad it may be.

    • RESPONSE TO “MUSLIM BROTHER’S” COMMENTS OF JAN 26

      In the debate video, please note that Sadat Anwer sahib referred to Ansar Raza saheb’s following (translated) statement on his radio program of Feb 12, 2012: “It’s a fundamental matter that because the Promised Messiah is included among the prophets, for this reason those who reject him will become kafirs in the same way as the rejecters of any other prophet” Later in the debate, Ansar Raza sahib retracted his statement because he was caught red-handed.

      But amazingly, in the same debate, Answer Raza sahib again somersaulted with the following assertion regarding the Lahori Ahmediyya Jamat: “A religion is something in which beliefs in those fundamental tenets, principle tenets, which are different from others. The belief or the principal tenet of Ahmediyya Muslim Jamaat are fundamentally two: First one that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed alaihis-salat-o salam is a prophet of God and the second that we have the khilafat…These are our two fundamental pillars of our Jamaat. Everyone else, they either reject both of them or one of them, so they are (as a result) not our sect; they are different jamaat. THEY (LAHOREES) ARE DIFFERENT RELIGION. THEY (LAHOREES) ARE YOUR SECT BECAUSE THEY AGREE WITH YOU.”

      If Anser Raza sahab called Lahorees’ religion different from Qadiyanism and lumped them with us Muslims, then we Muslims automatically become out of fold of Islam. Is it not?

      Let us now see your somersaults, “Muslim brother!”

      • Thanks for pointing out both points. Don’t be surprised by their somersaults, playing with words, never giving straight answers. It is an art they have acquired from their prophet and honed by their Khalifa’s teachings.

  15. Assalam o alaekum, I don’t know If Br. Sadat Anwar would ever read my comment, but if you do..I’d like to say Our Ummah need people like you. Your debate with Ansar Raza was brilliant!! I pray that Allah accept your effort and reward you for the every word you said in that debate. My Allah guide our Ahmadi brothers through that debate.I hope we’ll be seeing more events like that in future. JazakAllahu khairan kaseera!

  16. I have a question to all these friends and otherwise of Islam…..
    and it is only one question…..
    Is there a God(allah) Taala …
    Is this allah everpresent, and Malik and Rahman Rahim,
    Is he Samad…Is he omnipotent…..
    does he know everything that is going on in this world….
    is that right …
    If this is the case than why has he not taken any action against this Ahmadies….
    There number is increasing day by day, there community is increasing day by day. there resources are increasing day by day….
    How is that happening……Because my friends it has the blessings of Allah Taala.
    The ahmadies have been treated with hate with disgust, have been called kafirs, have been kicked out of the blanket of Islam.
    The constitution of Pakistan has declared them non-Muslim…This treatment has been going on since The promised Messiah claimed to be the Mahdi and the Promised Messiah. It has been 127 years since he claimed to be the Promised Messiah..
    His oponnents have suffered humiliation in every way…Because my freinds Allah Taala is with this community.
    open your eyes and think about this.
    A false prophet cannot succeed for very long, look at the history what happened to all those false prophets….
    But this community is mashallah sreading all over the world…
    look at the opponents of Ahmadiyya community,, look how they were treated ….
    Lekhram, , zulfiqar ali bhutto, General Zia ul Haq are just a few examples….
    Look how they were treated,,,, with disgrace….
    do you still have a doubt……… .
    ..

  17. I have a general question for those people who believe in the finality of prophethood but also believe that Jesus will return. If the Prophet (saw) is the last prophet, how do you explain the return of Jesus. The word last means something or someone that comes after all others and is the final person or object. If we believe that the Prophet (saw) is the last prophet, how do we explain the return of Jesus who will be a prophet when he returns? I know the argument given is that because he is an old prophet, it does not ruin the concept of prophethood but where is the support for this claim and even it does not contradict the finality of prophethood, we cannot make the statement that the prophet (saw) is the last prophet as prophet Jesus will be the last prophet.

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