Christianity

Debate: Islam or Christianity, which is the one true religion? Zakir Hussain vs Richard Lucas

This debate happened between MDI speaker, Zakir Hussain and Richard Lucas of the SOLAS Centre for Public Christianity. The event wasn’t filmed, so the video below only contains the recorded audio, together with pictures to delineate who’s speaking at any one time.

Debate: Islam or Christianity, which is the one true religion?

Zakir Hussain vs Richard Lucas

Venue: Blackburn Community Centre, Blackburn, Scotland, UK

Date: 20th January 2015

2 replies »

  1. 1- Jesus is not all knowing:
    Mark 24: 32-36:
    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree;
    When his branch is yet tender, and
    putteth forth leaves, ye know that
    summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when
    ye shall see all these things, know that it
    is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say
    unto you, This generation shall not pass,
    till all these things be fulfilled. 35
    Heaven and earth shall pass away, but
    my words shall not pass away. 36 But of
    that day and hour knoweth no man,
    no, not the angels of heaven, but my
    Father only
    God is all-knowing, Jesus fails this main
    qualification. This alone is enough to
    prove that Jesus is not God. Also note the
    verse says ONLY the Father meaning
    nobody else, including the divine Jesus.
    2- Jesus never said I am God.
    Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you
    make a claim on someone, then you
    would expect that someone to back your
    claim up. If I claim somebody is a king,
    you would expect that king to say he is a
    king, at least once. In the OT God says he
    is God several times, why not once with
    Jesus in the NT? Did God change his
    ways? I think not, since the OT says God
    does not change. Here are the passages
    from the OT where God says he is God:
    Gen 35:11 And God said unto him , I [am] God
    Almighty : be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a
    company of nations shall be of thee, and kings
    shall come out of thy loins
    Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy
    father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will
    there make of thee a great nation:
    Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the
    children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At
    even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye
    shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that
    I [ am] the LORD your God .
    Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have
    brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the
    house of bondage.
    Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I
    will be exalted among the heathen, I will be
    exalted in the earth.
    Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O
    Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am ] God,
    [even] thy God .
    Psa 81:10 I [am ] the LORD thy God, which
    brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy
    mouth wide, and I will fill it.
    Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am ] with thee: be
    not dismayed; for I [am] thy God : I will
    strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will
    uphold thee with the right hand of my
    righteousness.
    Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of
    darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that
    thou mayest know that I , the LORD, which call
    [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.
    Isa 45:5 I [ am] the LORD, and [there is] none else,
    [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though
    thou hast not known me:
    Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I
    [am] God , and [there is] none else ; [I am] God,
    and [there is] none like me,
    Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all
    flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
    Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the
    prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they
    shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither
    shall they be written in the writing of the house of
    Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of
    Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord
    GOD.
    Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my
    statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
    Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they
    shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may
    know that I [am] the LORD your God.
    Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your
    lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of
    your idols: and ye shall know that I [am ] the Lord
    GOD.
    So as we can see, God is not shy to say I
    am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how
    come he never said it once like the God
    of the OT? This is not a coincidence.
    3- Jesus is the son of man, the OT tells
    us not to trust the son of man:
    The New Testament makes it very
    clear that Jesus is the son of man:
    Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes
    have holes, and the birds of the air [have] nests;
    but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his]
    head.
    Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of
    man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then
    saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up
    thy bed, and go unto thine house
    Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the
    sabbath day.
    Luk 9:44 Let these sayings sink down into your
    ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into
    the hands of men.
    Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer
    many things, and be rejected of the elders and
    chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be
    raised the third day.
    Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute
    judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    The Old Testament tells us not to put our
    trust in the son of man:
    Psalms 146:
    1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my
    soul.
    2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing
    praises unto my God while I have any being.
    3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of
    man, in whom there is no help.
    So note, Jesus is the son of man, the OT
    tells us not to put our trust in the son of
    man; therefore we cannot place our trust
    in Jesus so he cannot be God. The OT is
    basically saying that you shouldn’t put
    your trust in men as you do with God, so
    hence we cannot put our trust in Jesus in
    the same way we do with God since Jesus
    is just a man, and he cannot really save
    us. So hence Jesus cannot be God.
    1- Jesus is the son of man
    2- The OT tells us not to put our trust in
    the son of man
    3- We cannot put our trust in Jesus as we
    do with God
    4- Jesus is not God
    The OT also tells us that there is no help
    in the son of man, therefore this means
    Jesus cannot help anybody, therefore he
    is not God since God can help all. So we
    cannot place our trust in Jesus, nor can
    he help us, therefore he cannot be God
    according to the OT.
    4- Jesus was GIVEN power and
    authority, he did not own it.
    As we all know, God is all-powerful and
    is independent, he needs no help from
    anybody. However so this is not the case
    with Jesus, unlike God, Jesus needs help
    from God, unlike God, Jesus does not
    own any power or any authority, rather
    it is given to him from God.
    Jhn 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had
    given all things into his hands, and that he was
    come from God, and went to God;
    John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto
    the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
    thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and
    they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known
    that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me
    are of thee . 8 For I have given unto them the
    words which thou gavest me ; and they have
    received them, and have known surely that I
    came out from thee, and they have believed that
    thou didst send me
    So as we can see, Jesus GIVEN everything
    he had! This all included miracle,
    doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do
    anything of his own, he never performed
    a miracle by his own power, he was
    given the miracle. He never taught
    anything of his own, rather he was
    taught by God and spoke what God told
    him to speak.
    Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said , My
    doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me
    Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself ;
    but the Father which sent me, he gave me
    a commandment , what I should say , and
    what I should speak.
    Jhn 8:26 I have many things to say and
    to judge of you: but he that sent me is
    true; and I speak to the world those things
    which I have heard of him.
    Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth
    not my sayings : and the word which ye
    hear is not mine, but the Father’s which
    sent me.
    So everything Jesus had was from God,
    from the Gospel to his miracles. God
    needs no one to give him power, God
    needs no one to tell him what to do,
    therefore Jesus is not God.
    I challenge any Christian to bring me
    one single miracle Jesus performed on
    his own, just one. The Christian will
    never be able to meet this challenge.
    5- Jesus was sent to a specific nation
    only, not to mankind
    It is very strange that when we read the
    Bible, we find that Jesus was sent to
    preach to a specific nation only, not
    mankind. One would expect to find Jesus
    being sent to all of mankind if he was
    God, rather what we find is that Jesus
    just like all the other prophets, was sent
    to a specific nation only:
    Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I
    am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the
    house of Israel.
    So as we see, Jesus was sent only for the
    lost sheep of Israel. His main duty was
    for them, not the gentiles or the world.
    Christians often like to say Jesus told his
    disciples to go preach to the gentiles,
    however so this doesn’t change anything.
    Jesus’ real mission as we see was for the
    children of Israel, not the gentiles, the
    verse I posted cannot be refuted. The
    verse is very clear, Jesus is SENT for the
    lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles,
    Jesus saying go preach to Gentiles does
    not mean he was sent for gentiles.
    5- Jesus denied being good in the sense
    that God is good.
    If Jesus is God one would expect him to
    admit he is good in the sense that God is
    good, meaning perfect. However when
    we read the Bible we see that Jesus
    denies being good in the sense that God
    is good which is perfect. Here are the
    passages:
    Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and
    said unto him, Good Master, what good
    thing shall I do, that I may have eternal
    life?
    Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why
    callest thou me good? [there is] none good
    but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt
    enter into life, keep the commandments.
    So note, the man calls Jesus good, Jesus
    tells the man there is non good but God.
    Obviously Jesus referred to God as
    someone else, which also proves Jesus
    isn’t God. However the main importance
    of the passages is that Jesus denies being
    Good in the way God is good, which is to
    be perfect.
    6- Jesus could not save anyone
    The Bible also claims that Jesus cannot
    save anyone! Here is the passage:
    Hebrews 5:1-8: 1 For every high priest
    taken from among men is ordained for
    men in things pertaining to God, that he
    may offer both gifts and sacrifices for
    sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the
    ignorant, and on them that are out of the
    way; for that he himself also is
    compassed with infirmity. 3 And by
    reason hereof he ought, as for the
    people, so also for himself, to offer for
    sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour
    unto himself, but he that is called of God,
    as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified
    not himself to be made an high priest;
    but he that said unto him, Thou art my
    Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he
    saith also in another place, Thou art a
    priest for ever after the order of
    Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his
    flesh, when he had offered up prayers and
    supplications with strong crying and tears
    unto him that was able to save him from
    death , and was heard in that he feared; 8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he
    obedience by the things which he
    suffered
    So Jesus cried to the one who could save
    him from death, this means Jesus could
    not save himself from death, therefore
    this also means Jesus cannot save anyone
    else from death. How can Jesus be God
    when he cannot save anyone? This also
    shows that Jesus is not in control of life
    and death, God however is in control of
    everything, including life and death:
    And they have taken besides Him gods,
    who do not create anything while they
    are themselves created, and they control
    not for themselves any harm or profit,
    and they control not death nor life, nor
    raising (the dead) to life . S. 25:3 Shakir
    This verse is from the Noble Quran, I
    guess this sums it all up doesn’t it?
    7- Jesus’ believers did NOT believe he
    was God neither
    One of the greatest Christian myths is
    that Jesus’ followers believed he was
    God. However so, this is not true, the
    Bible says otherwise:
    Matthew
    Chapter 16
    13-14
    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea
    Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do
    men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they
    said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist:
    some, Elias; and others, Jeremias , or one of the
    prophets
    So as we can see, the believers out of the
    population did not take Jesus as God,
    they took him for a great man, such as
    John the Baptist, or Elias, or some others.
    None of them said he is God. Now let us
    read on and see what his own disciples
    took him for:
    15-20
    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I
    am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said,
    Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17
    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed
    art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath
    not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is
    in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou
    art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my
    church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail
    against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys
    of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou
    shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
    and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall
    be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his
    disciples that they should tell no man that he
    was Jesus the Christ.
    So note, now Jesus asks his disciples
    about what they take him to be for, they
    respond by saying he is the SON OF GOD,
    Jesus agrees with them and tells them tell
    no man I am the Christ. So note, Jesus’
    disciples do not say you are God, Jesus
    himself does not say he is God.
    Now both the son of God and the term
    Christ do not mean God. They never
    have, and never will. The term Christ
    means Messiah, the definition of Messiah
    is not God, and the Jews who were
    awaiting their Messiah did not believe
    the Messiah would be God:
    The predominant Jewish understanding
    of moshiach (“the messiah”) is based on
    the writings of Maimonides , (the
    Rambam ). His views on the messiah are
    discussed in his Mishneh Torah , his 14
    volume compendium of Jewish law , in
    the section Hilkhot Melakhim
    Umilchamoteihem , chapter 11.
    Maimonides writes:
    “The anointed King (“HaMelekh
    HaMoshiach”) is destined to stand up
    and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its
    antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He
    will build the Temple in Jerusalem and
    gather the strayed ones of Israel
    together. All laws will return in his days
    as they were before: Sacrificial offerings
    are offered and the Sabbatical years and
    Jubilees are kept, according to all its
    precepts that are mentioned in the
    Torah . Whoever does not believe in him,
    or whoever does not wait for his coming,
    not only does he defy the other prophets,
    but also the Torah and our Rabbi Moses.
    For the Torah testifies about him, thus:
    “And the Lord Your God will return your
    returned ones and will show you mercy
    and will return and gather you… If your
    strayed one shall be at the edge of
    Heaven… And He shall bring you”
    etc.” (Deuteronomy 30:3-5).
    “These words that are explicitly stated in
    the Torah, encompass and include all the
    words spoken by all the prophets. In the
    section of Torah referring to Bala’am ,
    too, it is stated, and there he prophesied
    about the two anointed ones: The first
    anointed one is David, who saved Israel
    from all their oppressors; and the last
    anointed one will stand up from among
    his descendants and saves Israel in the
    end. This is what he says (Numbers
    24:17-18): “I see him but not now” – this
    is David; “I behold him but not near” –
    this is the Anointed King. “A star has
    shot forth from Jacob” – this is David;
    “And a brand will rise up from Israel” –
    this is the Anointed King. “And he will
    smash the edges of Moab ” – This is David,
    as it states: “…And he struck Moab and
    measured them by rope” (II Samuel 8:2);
    “And he will uproot all Children of Seth”
    – this is the Anointed King, of whom it is
    stated: “And his reign shall be from sea
    to sea” (Zechariah 9:10). “And Edom
    shall be possessed” – this is David, thus:
    “And Edom became David’s as slaves
    etc.” (II Samuel 8:6); “And Se’ir shall be
    possessed by its enemy” – this is the
    Anointed King, thus: “And saviors shall
    go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau,
    and the Kingdom shall be the
    Lord’s” (Obadiah 1:21).”
    “And by the Towns of Refuge it states:
    “And if the Lord your God will widen up
    your territory… you shall add on for you
    another three towns” etc. (Deuteronomy
    19:8-9). Now this thing never happened;
    and the Holy One does not command in
    vain. But as for the words of the
    prophets, this matter needs no proof, as
    all their books are full with this issue.”
    “Do not imagine that the anointed King
    must perform miracles and signs and
    create new things in the world or
    resurrect the dead and so on. The matter
    is not so: For Rabbi Akiba was a great
    scholar of the sages of the Mishnah , and
    he was the assistant-warrior of the king
    Ben Coziba , and claimed that he was the
    anointed king. He and all the Sages of his
    generation deemed him the anointed
    king, until he was killed by sins; only
    since he was killed, they knew that he
    was not. The Sages asked him neither a
    miracle nor a sign…”
    “And if a king shall stand up from
    among the House of David, studying
    Torah and indulging in commandments
    like his father David, according to the
    written and oral Torah, and he will
    coerce all Israel to follow it and to
    strengthen its weak points, and will fight
    Hashem’s wars, this one is to be treated
    as if he were the anointed one. If he
    succeeded {and won all nations
    surrounding him. Old prints and mss.}
    and built a Holy Temple in its proper
    place and gathered the strayed ones of
    Israel together, this is indeed the
    anointed one for certain, and he will
    mend the entire world to worship the
    Lord together, as it is stated: “For then I
    shall turn for the nations a clear tongue,
    to call all in the Name of the Lord and to
    worship Him with one
    shoulder” (Zephaniah 3:9).”
    “But if he did not succeed until now, or
    if he was killed, it becomes known that
    he is not this one of whom the Torah had
    promised us, and he is indeed like all
    proper and wholesome kings of the
    House of David who died. The Holy One,
    Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the
    public by him, thus: “And from the
    seekers of wisdom there shall stumble, to
    purify among them and to clarify and to
    brighten until the time of the ending, for
    there is yet to the set time” (Daniel
    11:35).”
    Taken from http://www.aish.com/
    tishabav/tishabavdefault/
    The_Messiah_in_Judaism.asp
    In Judaism, who is the Messiah?
    The messiah is a G-d fearing, pious Jew, who is
    both a great Torah scholar and a great leader as
    well. He is a direct descendent of King David, and
    will be anointed as the new Jewish King. (In fact,
    the Hebrew word for messiah – “Moshiach” –
    means “anointed one.”).
    When the messiah comes, there will be a
    universal recognition of the truth of Torah and the
    G-d Who gave that Torah at Mount Sinai. All
    Jews will return to the Land of Israel, where they
    will throw off the yoke of their enemies and
    undergo a complete spiritual revival. They will
    embrace the faith of their forefathers and dedicate
    themselves to G-d’s service forever.
    They will re-build the Holy Temple, from where
    the Divine presence will shine forth, spreading the
    light of truth, justice, tolerance and peace
    throughout the world.
    Taken from http://www.jewfaq.org/
    moshiach.htm
    The Moshiach
    The moshiach will be a great political
    leader descended from King David
    (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often
    referred to as “moshiach ben
    David” (moshiach, son of David). He will
    be well-versed in Jewish law, and
    observant of its commandments. (Isaiah
    11:2-5) He will be a charismatic leader,
    inspiring others to follow his example.
    He will be a great military leader, who
    will win battles for Israel . He will be a
    great judge, who makes righteous
    decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all,
    he will be a human being, not a god,
    demi -god or other
    supernatural being.
    It has been said that in every
    generation, a person is born with the
    potential to be the moshiach. If the time
    is right for the messianic age within that
    person’s lifetime, then that person will
    be the moshiach. But if that person dies
    before he completes the mission of the
    moshiach, then that person is not the
    moshiach.

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